Ok so a first happened in tonights game.
A NPC was killed in a square. A PC may move into an enemy occupied square if the opponent is helpless. So the PC did that. Next the PC got disabled and helpless in the same square. What are the rules for movement in a square with TWO helpless creatures?
What are the rules for movement in a square with TWO helpless creatures?
There are no explicit rules for two helpless creatures. This is up to the DM. I typically rule that it becomes hindered terrain.
I'd be calling it difficult terrain.
Well the differnece is this. Dead is dead, dead is not helpless, dead is a condition on a being whom is no longer living. Helpless is not dead, it's a condition on a living being.
Personally, I don't count dead bodies at all. Once their dead, that's it they're gone, off the map.
Helpless is a different matter however. If someone is helpless they are still alive and still occupying space.
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By RAW, the same as for one, three or ten helpless creatures. A character can move through and stop in a square containing other creatures if they are helpless. Any creature in a square (not a corpse, which is an object) prevents a character charging through it, unless he overruns, which raises some further interesting questions. Otherwise the GM decides if the square is obstructed enough to count as difficult terrain.
A disabled PC on 0 hit points is not helpless. Did you mean unconscious?
Ok so a first happened in tonights game.
A NPC was killed in a square. A PC may move into an enemy occupied square if the opponent is helpless. So the PC did that. Next the PC got disabled and helpless in the same square. What are the rules for movement in a square with TWO helpless creatures?
There are no rules for this that I am aware of, though the GM is encouraged to make squares act as difficult terrain when they have "too many" bodies in them. If I were keeping track of such things, I would say that two medium bodies in a 5' square would probably make the footing a bit difficult.
For simplicity, though, I usually just remove medium creatures from the map when they drop, unless they're not entirely out of the battle. For Large (and larger) creatures, I'll usually mark a few squares as difficult, or leave its mini sprawled over an appropriate area to indicate the same thing.
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Well the differnece is this. Dead is dead, dead is not helpless, dead is a condition on a being whom is no longer living. Helpless is not dead, it's a condition on a living being.
Personally, I don't count dead bodies at all. Once their dead, that's it they're gone, off the map.
Helpless is a different matter however. If someone is helpless they are still alive and still occupying space.
Even a dead body still takes up space, unless you're ruling that when a PC or NPC or whatever dies it just fades out of existence the same as the Jedi. I'll disagree with you on that one, but not strenuously. Style of play.
On the original topic, though, you're wondering what two prone bodies, dead or alive not mattering, counts as in terms of movement. Probably difficult terrain, based on the beginning of the definition of that feature: "Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement." Turning it around backwards, if your movement is hampered (as it would be by two bodies occupying the same square as the character), the terrain is difficult terrain. It would probably be the same if you were trying to walk through a group of people sleeping on the ground.
-Edit-
I tend to do something similar to Lexarius, although I leave either minis or markers in place for Medium and Small dropped creatures.
A disabled PC on 0 hit points is not helpless. Did you mean unconscious?
As I understand it 0 hp means unconscious which is part of the definition of helpless on pg. 193.
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As I understand it 0 hp means unconscious which is part of the definition of helpless on pg. 193.
A disabled PC on 0 hit points is not helpless. Did you mean unconscious?
Disabled (0 Hit Points)
When your current hit point total drops to exactly 0, you are disabled.You gain the staggered condition and can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can you take full-round actions).
Unconscious is below 0 hit points. 0 hit points characters can still act.
As I understand it 0 hp means unconscious which is part of the definition of helpless on pg. 193.
A disabled PC on 0 hit points is not helpless. Did you mean unconscious?
0 hp is disabled and you gain the staggered condition, see page 189. (unless you are are undead)
As I understand it 0 hp means unconscious which is part of the definition of helpless on pg. 193.
A disabled PC on 0 hit points is not helpless. Did you mean unconscious?
Effects of Hit Point Damage: Damage doesn't slow you down until your current hit points reach 0 or lower. At 0 hit points, you're disabled.
If your hit point total is negative, but not equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you are unconscious and dying.
When your negative hit point total is equal to your Constitution, you're dead.
Disabled (0 Hit Points): When your current hit point total drops to exactly 0, you are disabled.
You gain the staggered condition and can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can you take full-round actions). You can take move actions without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other strenuous action) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. Unless your activity increased your hit points, you are now at –1 hit points and dying.
Healing that raises your hit points above 0 makes you fully functional again, just as if you'd never been reduced to 0 or fewer hit points.
You can also become disabled when recovering from dying. In this case, it's a step toward recovery, and you can have fewer than 0 hit points (see Stable Characters and Recovery).
Shouldn't there be a penalty to AC for fighting on Difficult Terrain?
EDIT: Thanks for the clarity on 0 hp...will use that next game!
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I figure the slower movement is because you're still taking time to defend yourself and do other things normally. I could imagine allowing someone to move recklessly fast through difficult terrain with an Acrobatics check, like fast Stealth or fast Climb. But you'd probably be flat-footed (again, like when when Climbing).
PS- that's just off the top of my head, not something I've thought out carefully.
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Shouldn't there be a penalty to AC for fighting on Difficult Terrain?
EDIT: Thanks for the clarity on 0 hp...will use that next game!
If you rule that the square is hazardous enough that he has to make an Acrobatics check to avoid falling, he becomes flat-footed and loses his Dexterity and dodge bonuses.
That's pretty severe, though. I doubt I would require a PC to balance unless he was actually standing on a pile several corpses deep - which could happen, though 3e CR mechanics make it unlikely.
Shouldn't there be a penalty to AC for fighting on Difficult Terrain?
Not with difficult terrain, but perhaps with an obstacle than hampers movement where you might have to make a skill check, such as balancing with acrobatics.
Again, this for the GM to determine. A single body, no problem, maybe even two, standing on the corpse of gelatinous cube, I'd be calling for a acrobatics(balance) check. Balancing typically results in being flat-footed.
You can fit a LOT of bodies in a 5-foot square.
Unless there is an unusual number of bodies, or the body is especially large, I don't consider it difficult terrain or otherwise penalize my players.
You can fit a LOT of bodies in a 5-foot square.
I don't think I want to ask, how you can be so certain of that. :-)
You can fit a LOT of bodies in a 5-foot square.I don't think I want to ask, how you can be so certain of that. :-)
Easy. Once I saw that this was being discussed, I got out a measuring tape, measured out a 5x5' square, marked the area with spray paint, and had several friends and family members lie down within it see for myself.
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There actually is something to be said about the question of "What happens to our foes after they're slain in combat?"
Certainly a good amount of groups simply don't bother to do anything with them at all unless the body of a fallen foe is a significant part of the adventure. Most everything else is left to rot or just kind of disappears in a little puff of smoke, dropping any relevant loot onto the floor.
It's something you and your group should talk about probably.
In the groups I usually run with, there isn't too much of a big deal if a little pile of bodies ends up in the same square. Heck, once a mini is off the table it usually wouldn't be remembered as being in a particular spot unless there was a reason to do so.
Well the differnece is this. Dead is dead, dead is not helpless, dead is a condition on a being whom is no longer living. Helpless is not dead, it's a condition on a living being.
Personally, I don't count dead bodies at all. Once their dead, that's it they're gone, off the map.
Helpless is a different matter however. If someone is helpless they are still alive and still occupying space.
Even a dead body still takes up space, unless you're ruling that when a PC or NPC or whatever dies it just fades out of existence the same as the Jedi. I'll disagree with you on that one, but not strenuously. Style of play.
On the original topic, though, you're wondering what two prone bodies, dead or alive not mattering, counts as in terms of movement. Probably difficult terrain, based on the beginning of the definition of that feature: "Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement." Turning it around backwards, if your movement is hampered (as it would be by two bodies occupying the same square as the character), the terrain is difficult terrain. It would probably be the same if you were trying to walk through a group of people sleeping on the ground.
-Edit-
I tend to do something similar to Lexarius, although I leave either minis or markers in place for Medium and Small dropped creatures.
I totally agree with you in real life. However in the context of this game, I stand by my assessment. The most boring games I've ever been involved in is where everything is bogged down by rules. Every situation is over-analyzed to death. When that starts happening, when the GM is always telling players "oh wait that's difficult terrain now" or whatever it may be, players get frustrated and it's not fun. I try to make game-play move forward and not get bogged down by something that's truly insignificant as a dead body occupying space. Just seems like an unecessary complication to me.
What's more heroic...the gallant fighter attempting to vanquish the final opponent while standing on the bodies of his enemies, bellowing in triumph? or The same situation where the fighter slips and falls because he missed an unecessary acrobatics check?
I totally agree with you in real life. However in the context of this game, I stand by my assessment. The most boring games I've ever been involved in is where everything is bogged down by rules. Every situation is over-analyzed to death.
I think that too many rules can get in the way, but also my group likes to understand the rules and for us to try and stay consistent with them for PCs and NPCs especially during battles.
What I did was rule that to move thru the square was a minus to your AC, but after reading this thread I will rule that is difficult terrain that slows you down...however if you want to go at it full speed ahead then it is a Acrobatics check. I think my players will be fine with that.
I will add that this situation was a little unique as the square was right in front of a doorway the PCs were trying to funnel the enemies thru, so it was a very KEY square. Normally as a battle ebb and flows and minis are removed from the battlemat no one will remember who died in what square..although maybe I should start marking that so they can see the carnage they left behind when the dust settles! hmmmmm
The most boring games I've ever been involved in is where everything is bogged down by rules.
What is one man's rules minutiae is another man's detailed simulation. The most boring games I've ever been involved in is where everything takes place in a series of featureless immutable rooms. Terrain, opens up a whole realm of possible tactics that don't exist on a featureless plane.
(That said I have to admit I normally don't keep track of bodies unless there is going to be a large number of them at a choke point, let's say.)
What's more heroic...the gallant fighter attempting to vanquish the final opponent while standing on the bodies of his enemies, bellowing in triumph?
How does he know where to stand unless you keep track of the bodies? :-) and don't forget the +1 to attack because of higher ground.
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Personally, I'd say the more heroic thing would be either being able to keep his balance atop a dozen corpses while smiting his enemy or falling off said pile and accidentally killing the foe as he flails around. If he fell at the enemy (random direction based on d8, 2 options for adjacent and 1 for on top of), I'd give him a free attack roll as he fell over. Fumble means he impales himself.
That said, I'm mildly sadistic like that. :)
Really, I just enjoy how terrain rules and the various other "hazard" rules work. Terrain, weather, lighting, etc..
You can fit a LOT of bodies in a 5-foot square.
Unless there is an unusual number of bodies, or the body is especially large, I don't consider it difficult terrain or otherwise penalize my players.
THANK YOU!!!
This is one of the things that I find the most annoying about our new Pathfinder game (coming from 2E) We have our little checkerboard, and everything about movement and spell areas and line of sight... move actions etc... have gotten bogged down something fierce with 'the chessboard.' It feels more like a battle chess or stratagy game than a 'cinematic story' that I'm used to.
5' square is a huge area... two people can EASILY occupy that space. Look at your couch! Odds are that's shorter than 5' of sitting space, and you can cram 3 or more people on it.
Moving through a square with a body or two in it shouldn't be any trouble at all.
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5' square is a huge area... two people can EASILY occupy that space. Look at your couch! Odds are that's shorter than 5' of sitting space, and you can cram 3 or more people on it.
Moving through a square with a body or two in it shouldn't be any trouble at all.
I dunno about 2 bodies being no trouble at all. Measure out a 5-foot square, then have two friends lie down in it at random. Odds are very good that you'll have to step over them if you want to pass through the square. Still, I suppose you could call the difficult terrain limit at 3 if you wanted to.
That said, I'm also annoyed about the 5-foot dimension. 1-meter makes much more sense. One person only really occupies a 1x2-foot space, unless they're overly large. Then it's maybe as much as 2x3 or even 3x3. I don't know of any person who occupies a 5x5 space without being obscenely overweight.
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the 5'5 grid isn't just body size, it's the area the person takes up while maneuvering, feinting, legs spread for balance, able to turn and spin with little to no warning. Not just the space they're standing in, but the immediate surroundings they'll maneuver within while swinging blades and so on.
I know that's the justification, but I've never particularly thought that it would take up that much space. That said, I've never actually tried engaging in fantasy-era melee combat beyond some fencing lessons a few years back. As phantom1592 mentioned, a 5'x5' square is a huge space. Even a 3'x3' space is decently large, and there are d20-based RPGs that use that measurement. There are just things they had to do to convert real-life into game-terms that seem unrealistic (to me) at times.
i just wanna know why all the 6' characters are combat midgets not exceeding 5' tall.
I rule that anything the same size or 1 size cat smaller than the moving creature is difficult terrain, and anything larger than the moving creature requires a balance check.
I think a human could avoid a goblin or elf dead on the floor in a space but it would slow them [difficult].
I think a human would struggle to avoid a dead horse and therefore require a balance check.
the 5'5 grid isn't just body size, it's the area the person takes up while maneuvering, feinting, legs spread for balance, able to turn and spin with little to no warning. Not just the space they're standing in, but the immediate surroundings they'll maneuver within while swinging blades and so on.
Depends too much on 'fighting style'. Fencing barely uses any room at all... as would most piercing styles. Shield walls arent' standing 5' apart...
Casters don't use any room at all...
We had an encounter in a 10'x10' bedroom... and half the party had to wait in the hall... It was KIND of insane ;)
The fact that I take such incredible JOY from hand painting miniatures is the only reason I don't throw more of a fuss about the 'chessboard'...
I... REALLY like painting the figures :)
I... REALLY like painting the figures :)
Would you consider painting some figures for money?
Would you consider painting some figures for money?
I... REALLY like painting the figures :)
THoughts definitely crossed my mind a few times :)
We had an encounter in a 10'x10' bedroom... and half the party had to wait in the hall... It was KIND of insane ;)
Sounds like my kind of encounter.
I hope the succubus was okay.
It was so wild you guys had to line up? Hope they charged admission.
Sounds like a grapple heavy encounter.
Probably had to replace the bed after that.
The flood probably had the slippery modifier when you were done.
Really though, there are a handful of notes about terrrain that could be applicable here.
Slippery: Water, ice, slime, or blood can make any of the dungeon floors described in this section more treacherous. Slippery floors increase the DC of Acrobatics checks by 5.
Uneven Flagstone: Over time, some floors can become so uneven that a DC 10 Acrobatics check is required to run or charge across the surface. Failure means the character can't move that round. Floors as treacherous as this should be the exception, not the rule.
Hewn Stone Floors: Rough and uneven, hewn floors are usually covered with loose stones, gravel, dirt, or other debris. A DC 10 Acrobatics check is required to run or charge across such a floor. Failure means the character can still act, but can't run or charge in this round.
Light Rubble: Small chunks of debris litter the ground. Light rubble adds 2 to the DC of Acrobatics checks.
Dense Rubble: The ground is covered with debris of all sizes. It costs 2 squares of movement to enter a square with dense rubble. Dense rubble adds 5 to the DC of Acrobatics checks, and it adds 2 to the DC of Stealth checks.
Get enough bodies in place and others come into play
Natural Stone Floors: The floor of a natural cave is as uneven as the walls. Caves rarely have flat surfaces of any great size. Rather, their floors have many levels. Some adjacent floor surfaces might vary in elevation by only a foot, so that moving from one to the other is no more difficult than negotiating a stair step, but in other places the floor might suddenly drop off or rise up several feet or more, requiring Climb checks to get from one surface to the other. Unless a path has been worn and well marked in the floor of a natural cave, it takes 2 squares of movement to enter a square with a natural stone floor, and the DC of Acrobatics checks increases by 5. Running and charging are impossible, except along paths.