I just noticed the limitations on the monk's Improved Evasion ability (cannot be helpless) are different from those of their Evasion ability (cannot wear medium or heavy armor, cannot be helpless).
Does this mean that a 9th-level full plate wearing monk gets to keep his Improved Evasion ability?
I just noticed the limitations on the monk's Improved Evasion ability (cannot be helpless) are different from those of their Evasion ability (cannot wear medium or heavy armor, cannot be helpless).
Does this mean that a 9th-level full plate wearing monk gets to keep his Improved Evasion ability?
It's the same text (for both abilities) as with rogues.
So the question can be applied to rogues as well. :D
Yar!
I can definitely see it going either way.
The line "this works like evasion" does not exist in the Monk versions. (of course, as mentioned, so many other abilities rely on being armorless, I'd never consider it as a monk anyways).
It does exist in both the Rogue and the Ranger versions. However, even with that there, the regular evasion has two sentences telling you when it does not work. Improved Evasion includes one of those sentences (word for word). The first sentences omission could indeed be intentional, making it's omission an improvement for the improved ability.
Also, why would the second sentence on limitations be included and not the first, if it were not a change. Was that sentence left out to save on word count, using "it works like evasion, except" to cover that sentence (which is only about 8 words longer, depending on the ranger or rogue text)?
*shrugs*
I really can't say either way ATM.
~P
Well, Improved Evasion works when you fail the save. The heaviness of your armor might explain why you can't pull off the skilled escape of normal Evasion, but with Improved, it doesn't matter if you can't pull it off, since you're explicitly failing in the first place.
That's my totally contrived explanation, anyway.
|
Hard to tell if this is a joke or not.
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk's evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Alters existing evasion ability, hence being called Improved Evasion. It stays what it is, but has the alterations listed. wasting word count isn't the best idea for mass published material, therefor they do not need to replace the entire evasion listing.
Yar.
No joke.
It is an alteration/improvement of a previous ability. However, half of the description of the new and improved ability is not describing an alteration, but repeats the exact same thing the lesser version does. If that is a listed alteration in the limitations of the ability, then it is the only thing that bars the character from benefiting from it.
Chances are it is a re-affirmation that, even though it's improved, if you're helpless you still cannot benefit from this ability, and all normal restrictions of the lesser ability still apply. The reason this thread exists, is because that clarification does not exist (at least, in the monk version. One can say that the line "works like regular evasion: implies exactly this... but that line does not exist for a monk, hence this topic being raised in all seriousness).
~P
|
|
The monk's evasion ability improves.
That's the line you need. That's all you need. Anyone who misreads that is trying to exploit with semantics. This will never get FAQ'd, errata'd or anything. nothing is needed. It is as clear as crystal.
Here is the breakdown....
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk's evasion ability improves.
This means it is building off the wording of the original Evasion....
He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks,
This is a reference to something that is about to be altered from the original wording....
but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save.
And this is the change that happened....
Hard to tell if this is a joke or not.
Alters existing evasion ability, hence being called Improved Evasion. It stays what it is, but has the alterations listed. wasting word count isn't the best idea for mass published material, therefor they do not need to replace the entire evasion listing.
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level, a monk's evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Are you arguing that improved evasion DOES or DOES NOT work with armor?
Yar!
Shar Tahl: I actually do agree with you, however, not all crystals are as clear as people think.
We're about to enter a cyclical argument, but: "how does it improve? You still take no damage on a save, but now also take half damage when you fail. Awesome. Anything else? Yes: While helpless you cannot use this ability. That's it? No more listed armor restriction? Cool."
That is what is going on here.
Again, I agree with you: that should not be how it works. But this is the rules forum, and [metaphor]mountains can be moved by the small details[/metaphor] here.
~P
|
|
Yar!
Shar Tahl: I actually do agree with you, however, not all crystals are as clear as people think.
We're about to enter a cyclical argument, but: "how does it improve? You still take no damage on a save, but now also take half damage when you fail. Awesome. Anything else? Yes: While helpless you cannot use this ability. That's it? No more listed armor restriction? Cool."
That is what is going on here.
Again, I agree with you: that should not be how it works. But this is the rules forum, and [metaphor]mountains can be moved by the small details[/metaphor] here.
~P
The "helpless" part was to prevent this discussion that is happening now. This must have been an important enough distinction since it would be more likely to happen by mistake than some insane DM allowing a monk to use this with full plate when it is clearly building off the evasion ability as it explicitly states
The "helpless" part was to prevent this discussion that is happening now. This must have been an important enough distinction since it would be more likely to happen by mistake than some insane DM allowing a monk to use this with full plate when it is clearly building off the evasion ability as it explicitly statesYar!
Shar Tahl: I actually do agree with you, however, not all crystals are as clear as people think.
We're about to enter a cyclical argument, but: "how does it improve? You still take no damage on a save, but now also take half damage when you fail. Awesome. Anything else? Yes: While helpless you cannot use this ability. That's it? No more listed armor restriction? Cool."
That is what is going on here.
Again, I agree with you: that should not be how it works. But this is the rules forum, and [metaphor]mountains can be moved by the small details[/metaphor] here.
~P
The helpless part is mentioned in Evasion. If they were simply repeating the restrictions to avoid confusion, why leave out the mention of armor?
Your argument makes no sense. If armor and the helpless condition were BOTH mentioned in improved evasion, you would have a point, and this thread would not exist. You would also have a good point if neither were mentioned in improved evasion (they would, in effect, be inherited from evasion).
However, that is not the case. It is clear to me that Improved Evasion improved a number of things, one of which is the new ability to use it with heavier armors should one desire.
Sort of on the same topic but not really - can you buy a Ring of Evasion and have with work wearing a full plate?
Yes. The ring of evasion has no restrictions save one: you must be wearing the ring to gain it's effects.
|
A heavy armored fighter can really benefit from a two-level dip in monk. Yes, he can't use Flurry of Misses, Evasion, or his AC bonus in armor. But his unarmed strikes and bonus feats are always useful. Plus, trade out Evasion for Iron Monk from Monk of the Sacred Mountain and you get free Toughness and +1 natural armor. And if you get jumped without your armor, well you've got your AC bonus and flurry to surprise enemies with.
A heavy armored fighter can really benefit from a two-level dip in monk. Yes, he can't use Flurry of Misses, Evasion, or his AC bonus in armor. But his unarmed strikes and bonus feats are always useful. Plus, trade out Evasion for Iron Monk from Monk of the Sacred Mountain and you get free Toughness and +1 natural armor. And if you get jumped without your armor, well you've got your AC bonus and flurry to surprise enemies with.
Don't forget the big boost to saves, to surprise that wizard who likes cast Dominate at fighters who dumped their Wis stat to 7 to buy that 18 con and 18 Str. :)
I mentioned that when I said 'monk'. :)
Uh uh uh! We're on the IntarWebs, you know that means you can't mention something by implication. :) You have to mention it explicitly, or else you may start a nerdrage war. ;)
A heavy armored fighter can really benefit from a two-level dip in monk.
I don't see how. Unlike improved evasion, evasion DOES restrict the armor you wear.
A heavy armored fighter can really benefit from a two-level dip in monk.I don't see how. Unlike improved evasion, evasion DOES restrict the armor you wear.
Here, I'll repost ToZ's response earlier with bullet points.
- +3 to ALL saves
- Only loses 1 BAB
- Gains Improved Unarmed Damage, Proficiency with Monk weapons
- He trades Evasion for Toughness and Natural Armor +1, boosting HP and giving +1 AC.
- Gains Stunning Fist
- Gains a Monk Bonus Feat, which means he can do things like take Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, etc without having to qualify for it.
- If he's caught without weapons or armor, he has his Wis bonus (if any) to armor, and he is armed no matter what (and can still flurry then).
Another benefit is he can get a monk's robe at higher levels, and boost his unarmed damage, AC bonus when unarmored, and gain an extra use of Stunning Fist.
Now, in exchange, he gives up only 2 levels of progression in armor and weapon training (putting him 2 behind in each), and 1 BAB. He doesn't even lose a bonus feat, since he gains one from monk as well at 2nd level.
EDIT : See ToZ? I told you that you had to be explicit in these things.
EDIT^2 : Also, this assumes all he does is take Monk of the Sacred Mountain, he could also combine this with Monk of the Lotus (Touch of Serenity), Monk of the Four Winds (Elemental Fist), or Hungry Ghost Monk (Punishing Kick) to replace Stunning Fist with the corresponding special ability. Punishing Kick can still be used in heavy armor, so it makes the most logical choice. Although Elemental Fist could be as well. The best thing is, both feats scale with non-monk levels.
A heavy armored fighter can really benefit from a two-level dip in monk.I don't see how. Unlike improved evasion, evasion DOES restrict the armor you wear.Here, I'll repost ToZ's response earlier with bullet points.
- +3 to ALL saves
- Only loses 1 BAB
- Gains Improved Unarmed Damage, Proficiency with Monk weapons
- He trades Evasion for Toughness and Natural Armor +1, boosting HP and giving +1 AC.
- Gains Stunning Fist
- Gains a Monk Bonus Feat, which means he can do things like take Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, etc without having to qualify for it.
- If he's caught without weapons or armor, he has his Wis bonus (if any) to armor, and he is armed no matter what (and can still flurry then).
And to add to that, you get 4 more skill points than otherwise (unless int 7, then you only get 2 more skill points) as well as monk class skills, including Perception and Acrobatics (and stealth, which is a nice situational skill to put a rank in if you're decently dexterious).
|
|
EDIT^2 : Also, this assumes all he does is take Monk of the Sacred Mountain, he could also combine this with Monk of the Lotus (Touch of Serenity), Monk of the Four Winds (Elemental Fist), or Hungry Ghost Monk (Punishing Kick) to replace Stunning Fist with the corresponding special ability. Punishing Kick can still be used in heavy armor, so it makes the most logical choice. Although Elemental Fist could be as well. The best thing is, both feats scale with non-monk levels.
Okay, I went and looked up Punishing Kick and immediately thought "This! Is! SPARTA!" XD The limited uses per day makes me go :? but then, I guess it's not as dramatic if you do it every round. :P
In my defense, it IS the Ravingdork. :)
EDIT : See ToZ? I told you that you had to be explicit in these things.
My rep is such that I've earned a "The" prefix?
lolz.
Okay, I went and looked up Punishing Kick and immediately thought "This! Is! SPARTA!" XD The limited uses per day makes me go :? but then, I guess it's not as dramatic if you do it every round. :P
EDIT^2 : Also, this assumes all he does is take Monk of the Sacred Mountain, he could also combine this with Monk of the Lotus (Touch of Serenity), Monk of the Four Winds (Elemental Fist), or Hungry Ghost Monk (Punishing Kick) to replace Stunning Fist with the corresponding special ability. Punishing Kick can still be used in heavy armor, so it makes the most logical choice. Although Elemental Fist could be as well. The best thing is, both feats scale with non-monk levels.
Well, it's replacing Stunning Fist, which is a per day mechanic as well, so it makes sense.
And to add to that, you get 4 more skill points than otherwise (unless int 7, then you only get 2 more skill points) as well as monk class skills, including Perception and Acrobatics (and stealth, which is a nice situational skill to put a rank in if you're decently dexterious).
GAH! I knew I was missing something else. :(
So, to add to that list...
- 4 additional skill points (assuming you didn't dump your int down so low it's messing up the numbers)
- Some more class skills that the fighter didn't have
For completeness sake, he DOES lose out on 4 hit points, so depending on how high level he reaches the net hit points gain after Toughness might not be noticeable.
|
Just to throw in, I think it's a formatting issue. They probably had to save a bit of space, so they didn't include "This ability works like evasion, except that while," which would have added a line vertically. Monk seems fairly tight on space that way, what with all the class abilities that have no parallels elsewhere. Eight words can be a lot when it comes to formatting.
The helpless part is mentioned in Evasion. If they were simply repeating the restrictions to avoid confusion, why leave out the mention of armor?
Your argument makes no sense. If armor and the helpless condition were BOTH mentioned in improved evasion, you would have a point, and this thread would not exist. You would also have a good point if neither were mentioned in improved evasion (they would, in effect, be inherited from evasion).
However, that is not the case. It is clear to me that Improved Evasion improved a number of things, one of which is the new ability to use it with heavier armors should one desire.
To counter this, no mention of improved evasion makes mention of the armor restriction. All three examples from the Core base classes include the Helpless condition in Improved, but not the armor condition, so the argument could be made that either it applies to all or it applies to none. The only difference between Monk, Ranger, and the Rogue Talent are the eight words mentioned above (the Rogue talent version also leaves out the "a [class]'s evasion improves" line). Given the use of the words "a [class]'s evasion ability improves," it would appear that the intent was that the Evasion ability improved in only the ways listed explicitly. Improved Evasion also doesn't make mention that it only applies against attacks that normally deal half-damage on a successful Reflex save. Would that mean that since it isn't mentioned, a Reflex save could be made against an attack that doesn't offer Ref for half normally? Probably not.
Also interesting to note that animal/non-character forms of Evasion and Improved Evasion (animal companion, eidolon, familiar, mount) don't include the armor stipulation or the helpless stipulation, so as long as the Wizard's cat keeps making its saves, he could knock it unconscious and tie it to the table before dropping Fireballs on it and it wouldn't get hurt.
Still, the wording does leave the possibility of alternate interpretation. I'm just going to put my 2cp on Monk Improved Evasion being essentially the same as the other forms (Ranger, Rogue Talent, Shadow Dancer). All that said, feel free to put your Monk in full-plate and try it.
For what it's worth.
|
|
The thing is, you KNOW this is a wrong interpretation. Everyone KNOWS a monk does not wear heavy armor. No clarification is needed. There is no confusion for any sane individual. This is just trouble making, which I think you enjoy the arguing for the sake of arguing.
The "helpless" part was to prevent this discussion that is happening now. This must have been an important enough distinction since it would be more likely to happen by mistake than some insane DM allowing a monk to use this with full plate when it is clearly building off the evasion ability as it explicitly statesYar!
Shar Tahl: I actually do agree with you, however, not all crystals are as clear as people think.
We're about to enter a cyclical argument, but: "how does it improve? You still take no damage on a save, but now also take half damage when you fail. Awesome. Anything else? Yes: While helpless you cannot use this ability. That's it? No more listed armor restriction? Cool."
That is what is going on here.
Again, I agree with you: that should not be how it works. But this is the rules forum, and [metaphor]mountains can be moved by the small details[/metaphor] here.
~P
The helpless part is mentioned in Evasion. If they were simply repeating the restrictions to avoid confusion, why leave out the mention of armor?
Your argument makes no sense. If armor and the helpless condition were BOTH mentioned in improved evasion, you would have a point, and this thread would not exist. You would also have a good point if neither were mentioned in improved evasion (they would, in effect, be inherited from evasion).
However, that is not the case. It is clear to me that Improved Evasion improved a number of things, one of which is the new ability to use it with heavier armors should one desire.
The thing is, you KNOW this is a wrong interpretation. Everyone KNOWS a monk does not wear heavy armor. No clarification is needed. There is no confusion for any sane individual. This is just trouble making, which I think you enjoy the arguing for the sake of arguing.
Sorry, but you totally lost me after you implied my having a distinct lack of sanity. If you are going to make an argument for your interpretation, it's best to not insult and ostracize the opposition. That only causes their willingness to listen to your argument to completely shut down as is the case here.
Apologize, and we might again move forward.
For what it's worth, this oddity is a carryover from 3.5. Anyone know if there was errata/FAQ entries on it there?
|
apologies... and the internet...
apologies... and the internet...
I... I just don't see how they connect..
:p
In all seriousness Shar, it's entirely possible that a monk would attempt to disguise himself by dressing in armor. If he were then discovered, evasion becomes important in trying to avoid that angry fireball.
I mean, the line of reasoning "everyone knows" is tantamount to giving up. Everyone "knew" that the world was flat *excepting sailors, probably*. Just because everyone thinks they know something doesn't mean its right.
For completeness sake, he DOES lose out on 4 hit points, so depending on how high level he reaches the net hit points gain after Toughness might not be noticeable.
To continue the thread hijack, (s)he'd loose out on 2 HP if you arent' using max HP on levelup.
Concerning the main discussion: I've got no idea. I can totally see pirate's point about the weirdness of including one limitation into the description and leaving out the other. Why do that if it's not supposed to mean something. And since the sentence "This ability works like evasion, [...]" from the rangers description is missing, I'd totally let the monk use evasion inside armor.
The far more interesting case in my eyes is the ranger, though. A ranger in heavy armor being able to use improved evasion but not evasion would face half damage no matter the result of the saving throw, hmmm. Why not, but "working like evasion" implies the same restrictions as well, so my verdict (contradicitng my statement about having no idea) would be:
Monks can use improved evasion in armor, rangers cannot use improved evasion in heavy armor.
...yar.
... It's like a joke thread.
Please stop calling a rules discussion in the rules forum a joke. It is not.
~P
...yar.
... It's like a joke thread.Please stop calling a rules discussion in the rules forum a joke. It is not.
~P
Agreed. It's insulting.
For completeness sake, he DOES lose out on 4 hit points, so depending on how high level he reaches the net hit points gain after Toughness might not be noticeable.To continue the thread hijack, (s)he'd loose out on 2 HP if you arent' using max HP on levelup.
She'd lose 6 on max HP at levelup, but max hp's not the baseline. If you roll, average hit points on the roll goes down by 1 each level and you lose the FC bonus to hit points or skills. (1+1)*2.
She'd lose 6 on max HP at levelup, but max hp's not the baseline. If you roll, average hit points on the roll goes down by 1 each level and you lose the FC bonus to hit points or skills. (1+1)*2.For completeness sake, he DOES lose out on 4 hit points, so depending on how high level he reaches the net hit points gain after Toughness might not be noticeable.To continue the thread hijack, (s)he'd loose out on 2 HP if you arent' using max HP on levelup.
Half-elf, two FCs. :)
Okay, I went and looked up Punishing Kick and immediately thought "This! Is! SPARTA!" XD The limited uses per day makes me go :? but then, I guess it's not as dramatic if you do it every round. :P
EDIT^2 : Also, this assumes all he does is take Monk of the Sacred Mountain, he could also combine this with Monk of the Lotus (Touch of Serenity), Monk of the Four Winds (Elemental Fist), or Hungry Ghost Monk (Punishing Kick) to replace Stunning Fist with the corresponding special ability. Punishing Kick can still be used in heavy armor, so it makes the most logical choice. Although Elemental Fist could be as well. The best thing is, both feats scale with non-monk levels.
Also interesting to note with Punishing Kick; despite the name, the rules text just says you do it as part of an attack. No mention of it having to be an unarmed attack. Actually, it doesn't even say it needs to be a melee attack. Oops.