Mounted acrobatics

[AionicElf]

If you and your mount both have acrobatics, and you wish to use acrobatics to move through a threatened square: Is it possible to do so? What check do you use?

I can see a couple possible interpretations:

1) You use the mount's check
2) You each make a check, and you fail if either of you fails the check.
3) You each make a check. The mount failing means it is unsuccessful. You failing means you fall off the mount.
4) The mount makes an acrobatics check and you make a ride check.
5) It cannot be done.

Does anyone know of anything to support one of these positions? Or have another interpretation?

[Some call me Tim]

First, your GM has to allow a mount (most likely an animal) to be trained to use acrobatics in such a manner. But let's assume an intelligent mount for the moment.

I don't see why an intelligent mount (provided it isn't encumbered by the rider) wouldn't make its own check, it is moving and obviously provokes. This is all in the realm of rules-as-written.

I would probably also call for a DC 5 ride check for "stay in saddle" because your mount "rears or bolts unexpectedly."

Now, for whether the rider also provokes we need to figure out if "moving" means "using a move action" or merely "leaving a square." I could see where a GM could rule either way.

The closest parallel I could find is that if your mount charges you also take the AC penalty. So, I would probably extend this to mean that the mount's movement causes all penalties to be applied including provoking.

An old Wizards Rules of the Game article, specifically said both rider and mount provoke and a defender could take an AoO against both (if they get multiple AoOs) in 3.5.

The next question is whether the rider could also use acrobatics. Again, while I could see allowing the rider to make a check as well, I would probably rule that he can't use acrobatics although he could use a DC 15 ride check to take cover.

Another option I just thought of was treat it similar to a leap. That uses acrobatics(jump) for the mount and seems to make sense.

You use the better of your ride modifier or the mount's acrobatics modifier to determine success for tumbling. Then just like leap, a DC 15 ride check to stay on the mount. If you fail then the you both provoke and the defender can make one AoO on either of you. You're moving past to quickly to allow an attack on each.

Not rules-as-written but it seems defensible as a ruling.

[reefwood]

A good question and one that seems up to DM discretion, so the answer may vary from group to group. I can see it being handled a variety of ways, depending on how rules heavy and/or technical and/or time consuming the DM wants it to be, as well as experience. Here is my take on the options...

The simplest and quickest method would be for the rider and mount to make separate Acrobatic checks. If the rider fails, he provokes. If the mount fails, it provokes. This seems fair and easy, but if you want it to be even simpler... only the mount makes an Acrobatics check, and if it fails, the mount and rider provoke.

As far as I can see, the mount does not need to have ranks in Acrobatics to tumble, nor does it have to be very intelligent. A mindless creature, such as a skeletal horse, might have a problem doing this, but a creature with an Intelligence score, such as a regular horse, can probably try to avoid danger.

Now if you want this to be more complex, I can see these requirements and modifiers being appropriate:

-The rider must make a Handle Animal check to get the mount to tumble. DC 10 if the mount is trained to tumble (there is no Tumble trick, but it would seem okay to make one up), or DC 20 to "Push" the mount to tumble if the mount does not know the Tumble trick (or if the Tumble trick does not exist...and if the trick does not exist, it will always require a "Push" which also means that only riders with ranks in Handle Animal can attempt to make their mounts tumble because you cannot succeed past DC 10 in Handle Animal if you have no ranks... and if tumble is not even a trick, getting a mount could even require DC 25 instead of the standard DC 20 to "Push"). If the rider fails the Handle Animal check, the mount does not tumble, and therefore provokes, but the rider can still make an Acrobatics check (unless you use the simplest method which only allows mount to make an Acro check).

-Apply a -2 penalty to the Acrobatics check of the rider because sitting on a mount makes it harder to squirm around and avoid enemies. And perhaps increase the penalty to -4 or -5 if the mount is also tumbling because it is even harder to avoid enemies when your mount is jostling all over...or maybe just apply the bigger penalty if your mount fails its Acro check.

The previous responder mentioned a Ride check DC 5 for when the mount bolts unexpectedly, but since the rider is causing the mount to bolt, I would say that the rider is expecting this action, so he doesn't need to make this Ride check for being surprised by it. On the flipside, you could argue that he knows the mount will tumble, but he doesn't know exactly how it will move when doing so, and therefore, its specific movements may comes as a surprise and do warrant the Ride check to "Stay in Saddle" vs DC 5.

And part of all this is how hard the DM wants this task to be. If getting a mount to tumble is something that any commoner can pull off, make the rules easy, but if it is something that only trained knights should be able to do easily, make it hard.

[mdt]

People teach horses acrobatics all the time in the real world.

Horses : The famous Liperzanner (sp?) Stallions, who do intricate leaping and coreography moves. Most circuses have trained horses who jump and balance on things. Any steeplechaser is trained to do jumps.

Dogs : Any dog in a dog and pony show, any circus show involving dogs. (Hah! Got to use that in an actual sentence with it's actual meaning! Take that interwebs!)

Cats : Any circus big cat show has them trained in acrobatics. Any cat has a natural acrobatics boost. :)

Anyway, the point is, animals can have acrobatics all the time. It's used for Jump now. :) So, yeah, your mount should be able to make an acrobatics check to jump over an enemy. How?

Step 1 : Teach it the trick 'Charge and jump over the enemy'.
Step 2 : Give it the command.
Step 3 : Horse makes an Acrobatics Check per normal rules (including armor ACP and encumbrance rules!).
Step 4 : Rider makes a ride check to stay in the saddle.

If horse succeeds but rider doesn't, then the enemy get's an AoO on the rider as he falls past him in uncontrolled freefall. :)

If the horse fails, the enemy get's an AoO against either the horse or the rider, at his choice.

If both succeed, then they land on the other side and no the worse for wear.

[AionicElf]

Interesting takes. Thank you.

Seems that there's no rules support either for or against.

Unless someone comes up with more information, I'll have to ponder this more for my game.