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Assuming I have the Pathfinder Beastiary II, how do I make a quickling PC? Is there a LA?
There are no LA in Pathfinder.
So what do I do then?
You would go by its CR. So for example if your group of PCs are 4th Level you would have a Quickling(CR 3) with 1 class level.
You would go by its CR. So for example if your group of PCs are 4th Level you would have a Quickling(CR 3) with 1 class level.
Exactly right.
If you wish, I can post in exhaustive depth the mechanical benefits of playing a Quickling as well as the rules governing playing such a character.
Is it really worth the 3 levels lost?
Is it really worth the 3 levels lost?
Yes.
In return for those lost three levels you gain 4 hit dice in Fey. Additionally, you will gain back one of those lost three levels only two levels later, so by the time your party is 5th-level you will be a fey 4/class 3.
Considering you are immune to all spells and effects that specifically target humanoids, gain +14 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis/Int/Cha in exchange for -2 Str, AND you have low-light vision, evasion, natural invisibility, supernatural speed, uncanny dodge, DR 5/cold iron, sneak attack +1d6, poison use, 120-foot speed, Mobility and Spring Attack as free bonus feats, free simple weapons and short sword proficiency, and +1 natural armor...
...I'd say it's pretty damn good for a 3rd-level character, even without class levels.
The only time you should consider against it is if you are playing a spellcaster. Losing spellcasting class levels ALWAYS hurts. Even then, may still be worth it.
EDIT: As James says below, you should check with the GM first.
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The actual way you go about it is you ask your GM and get permission to play a quickling character. Since no two games are alike, what might be a game breaker in one game is a non-issue in another.
For a standard game, though, a quickly would certainly be a fair bit more powerful than any other class, if only because quicklings (unlike the core races) have racial hit dice.
So I still get to roll my own stats and such?
So I still get to roll my own stats and such?
You would use whatever method your group is accustomed to using (point buy, rolling, homebrew, whatever) and then apply -2 Str, +14 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha. These are the creature's base ability modifiers, which are determined by subtracting 10 (if the ability score is even) or 11 (if odd). You can do this for any monster that does not have class levels (like a goblin, which posts ability mods in a separate section anyways).
Please note that your racial hit dice count as class levels for the purposes of determining general feats (at each odd level) and level increases to your ability scores (every 4th level).
So then I just look at the stat block to determine the other abilities I get?
For something like that I would back out the racial hit dice, skills, saves, and feats to make it a base race and then add class levels. (Knocking down the stats to their base adjustments too.)
I'm sorry, but it would be pretty much impossible to balance a race that started with evasion, immunity to Hold/Charm/Dominate/etc Person, uncanny dodge, permanent blur, base speed of 120 feet, DR5/cold iron, and invisibility anytime you're motionless that would not be a superior choice to every other race in the game at level 1. I'd go so far as to say not even without substantive negative statistical modifiers.
I would never, ever, ever allow one of my PCs to play a quickling for the pittance of -3 levels for that array of abilities. Figured I'd I'd jump in to help illustrate James' point :)
So then I just look at the stat block to determine the other abilities I get?
That, and the Fey creature type in the Bestiary (that will clue you in on the BAB, saves, hit points and other features of having "levels" of Fey).
So then I just look at the stat block to determine the other abilities I get?
Correct. You have to reverse engineer the skill points and remove the racial bonuses from them, or just consult your bestiary to determine the skill, feats, and BAB points you'd receive from 4 racial hit die of Fey.
So then I just look at the stat block to determine the other abilities I get?Correct. You have to reverse engineer the skill points and remove the racial bonuses from them...
Actually, in Pathfinder, you don't have to do this. They list all Racial bonuses right in the skills entry of EVERY monster
Take a look at the Goblin stat block, for example:
Skills Ride +10, Stealth +10, Swim +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Ride, +4 Stealth
18 Dex + 14 racial is 32 Dex. Take ranks in Perform (Dance), a Scimitar, Dervish Dance from APG and you have a character that deals 1d4+11 damage with a 18-20 critical threat range before modifiers (and yes, you can make that strength positive if you allocate more than a 13), with a free +1d6 Sneak Attack from racial ability.
Your base speed is 120, which means you really want to keep your Spring Attack; it also gives you a +36 racial bonus to jumping, after the +11 Dexterity bonus you get to Acrobatics. This means that you can standing jump pretty much anywhere, ignoring the majority of Difficult Terrains.
You're going to have a lot of power to start combats from surprise, granting your Sneak Attack. Simply stand still so your invisibility comes into effect; even if you're Glitterdusted during this time, it only applies a -40 to your Stealth check, where standing motionless with invisibility adds a +40 to your Stealth check, meaning that it's down to your Stealth versus their Perception and you're still very likely to succeed.
Defensively, their primary stat gives them huge AC every time they pump it. They get Uncanny Dodge, so there is very little in the way of denying them that from attacking from surprise. They still get 20% miss chance as long as they aren't Slowed, and any attacks that get through need to chew through DR 5/Cold Iron. That's not as big at higher levels, where enhancement bonuses alone cause weapons to count as penetrating cold iron, but at the level in which you encounter them it's rough to chew through and cause them to simulate the hit points of a character much beefier than they are.
Having one stat contribute to your AC, attacks and damage is pretty raw on its own.
18 Dex + 14 racial is 32 Dex. Take ranks in Perform (Dance), a Scimitar, Dervish Dance from APG and you have a character that deals 1d4+11 damage with a 18-20 critical threat range before modifiers (and yes, you can make that strength positive if you allocate more than a 13), with a free +1d6 Sneak Attack from racial ability.
Your base speed is 120, which means you really want to keep your Spring Attack; it also gives you a +36 racial bonus to jumping, after the +11 Dexterity bonus you get to Acrobatics. This means that you can standing jump pretty much anywhere, ignoring the majority of Difficult Terrains.
You're going to have a lot of power to start combats from surprise, granting your Sneak Attack. Simply stand still so your invisibility comes into effect; even if you're Glitterdusted during this time, it only applies a -40 to your Stealth check, where standing motionless with invisibility adds a +40 to your Stealth check, meaning that it's down to your Stealth versus their Perception and you're still very likely to succeed.
Defensively, their primary stat gives them huge AC every time they pump it. They get Uncanny Dodge, so there is very little in the way of denying them that from attacking from surprise. They still get 20% miss chance as long as they aren't Slowed, and any attacks that get through need to chew through DR 5/Cold Iron. That's not as big at higher levels, where enhancement bonuses alone cause weapons to count as penetrating cold iron, but at the level in which you encounter them it's rough to chew through and cause them to simulate the hit points of a character much beefier than they are.
Having one stat contribute to your AC, attacks and damage is pretty raw on its own.
Yep. This is exactly why you should work with the GM when creating a monstrous character. It can quickly get out of hand otherwise.
The existing system, if followed strictly, is fairly strong and balanced I think, up to about CR 8 creatures. However, their are exceptions aplenty, so check with your GM always.
Also, as Jason said, what might be balanced for one group might not be balanced for another.
Yep. This is exactly why you should work with the GM when creating a monstrous character. It can quickly get out of hand otherwise.
The existing system, if followed strictly, is fairly strong and balanced I think, up to about CR 8 creatures. However, their are exceptions aplenty, so check with your GM always.
Also, as Jason said, what might be balanced for one group might not be balanced for another.
I've found in general it works pretty well up to CR 3, and so so up to CR 5. Anything beyond that get's out of hand IMHO.
As to the quickling, I honestly feel like he's got a level of rogue, sneak attack, uncanny dodge, etc. But it doesn't seem to be called out.
I wonder if that information is in the errata, or if we could get a staff member to comment on it...
I wonder if that information is in the errata, or if we could get a staff member to comment on it...
Which information are you referring to?
...cause quicklings don't have a level in rogue. They are just very roguish, racially speaking.
By default, none of the creatures in the Bestiaries have class levels AND racial hit dice.
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Creative Director
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I wonder if that information is in the errata, or if we could get a staff member to comment on it...
Ummm... there's no errata at all. Quicklings are first and foremost monsters. Using them as a player character race is really advanced gaming stuff, and it's not directly supported by the game even if it IS supported by the underlying rule structure.
Also, I'm not Jason, for what that's worth as well, even though we both have names that start with a J and an A... :-)
Also, I'm not Jason, for what that's worth as well, even though we both have names that start with a J and an A... :-)
Ack! I'm always doing that! So sorry. :(
So they have an adjustment of only 3, but 4 hit dice?
So they have an adjustment of only 3, but 4 hit dice?
If you are referring to anything like level adjustment, than no. There is no level adjustment in Pathfinder.
From the Bestiary:
Using one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.
There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.
For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.
You would go by its CR. So for example if your group of PCs are 4th Level you would have a Quickling(CR 3) with 1 class level.
Don't you need to count the hit dice?
You would go by its CR. So for example if your group of PCs are 4th Level you would have a Quickling(CR 3) with 1 class level.Don't you need to count the hit dice?
No, hit dice goes into the CR calculation. Check the back of the Bestiary, it goes into detail on it.
EDIT : That refers to Racial Hit Dice.
You would go by its CR. So for example if your group of PCs are 4th Level you would have a Quickling(CR 3) with 1 class level.Don't you need to count the hit dice?
According to the core rulebook you do, which is probably what you are remembering. However, the Bestiary came out later, and was updated with better rules , so that takes precedent (much like grab in the Bestiary II was updated over that of the Bestiary).
It's also worth noting that the entry in the core rulebook on "playing monstrous characters" doesn't appear in the PRD while the one in the Bestiary does.