I would imagine that in some of those cultures the slaves would be treated well, and even "regular" people would be punished for harming a slave. In others, slaves would be treated little better than stray animals, and there would probably not be any punishment for harming a slave. And then some would lie in the middle.
As for which places would fit which type, I'm not entirely sure. I'd imagine Tian-Xia to be in the first category.
I would imagine that in some of those cultures the slaves would be treated well, and even "regular" people would be punished for harming a slave. In others, slaves would be treated little better than stray animals, and there would probably not be any punishment for harming a slave. And then some would lie in the middle.
As for which places would fit which type, I'm not entirely sure. I'd imagine Tian-Xia to be in the first category.
Good rationalising.
The laws of damaging someone elses property were very mild to incedably severe(horse theives got hanged) if slaves are property then those laws would apply. A stray fireball may cost a wizard some serious gold.
Slavery is also not tolerated in the river kingdoms. Cheliax legal and has mostly halfing slaves as common.
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I believe Andoran is one of the few places where slavery is outlawed.
There's also the River Kingdoms, and it's interesting that their reasons for being anti-slavery are completly different than the Andoran idealism.
How would slavery differ in Cheliax, Osiriion, Qadira, and Taldor, The Mwangi expanse, Vudra, Tian Xia? What are your thoughts?
Cheliax would have harsh and cruel laws regarding slavery, but, being tricky sorts of laws, there would likely be some provisions in there that could be turned around on the slave-owners if they broke some law on treatment of their slaves. Sacrificing them ritually might be totally fine, but slapping one in the street (particularly striking or harming or mistreating the slave of someone else, especially a social superior!) could lead to problems for the owner.
Katapesh would have less laws (if any) that might be twisted to benefit the slave or protect the slave from abuse, as it's a place where the only laws that exist, do so to protect the wealthy, not the poor or disadvantaged.
Vudra, if it follows an Indian caste-system, might designate slaves as a specific caste, with social rules and traditions restricting exactly what sort of interactions are permitted. It's entirely possible that it's forbidden to even *touch* a slave, for a higher-caste individual, and that striking a slave could lead to the higher-caste person risking their own status.
Slavery in general seems like it would be more cruel in a situation where the owner and slave are of different races. Cheliaxian humans owning halflings would likely treat them far worse (and the laws would likely be far less protective of them) than they would other humans, particularly Chelaxian humans who have been sold into debt-slavery. In Sargava, they'd probably treat Mwangi slaves worse than fellow Chel-descended humans. Those who were enslaved as prisoners of war or as a sentence for crimes would also likely be treated worse (just as people in general have no sympathy for people in prison), considering abuse or mistreatment to be 'part of the punishment' or 'what they deserve' for their crimes.
I would expect Numeria, if it has slavery, to be pretty brutal about it. The local authorities don't seem terribly compassionate, or bound by any sort of legal mandates other than those intended to maintain their own monopoly on power.
I don't really know much about Tien Xa (or slavery in countries analogous to that, for that matter), so no idea there.
So much about Egyptian slavery is confused with work-gangs of free farmers and villagers, that it's hard to say what the life of an actual slave was like there, so parallels to Osirion, if even applicable, would be hard to make any meaningful assumptions.
I could see Taldorans publically treating their slaves quite well, perhaps even indulgently, simply to keep up appearances, but some being quite cruel to them behind closed doors.
In Absalom the treatment of slaves depends on the individual, in private anything is tolerated, in public as long as it doesn't make visitors disgusted and disrupt the trade.
Slaves are property and property laws would mostly be applied to the situation. In the worst places you would be looked upon as stupid for breaking your own goods in better places people would report you for something akin to animal cruelty.
Damaging or killing somebody-else's goods the attitudes would range from you just broke one of my tools I want compensation, to you just killed my favourite thoroughbred horse - I am going to have you charged and I will sue you for all you are worth.
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Taldor has serfs more than slaves imo. Pesants in the countryside are serfs, while vagabonds and poor can get enslaved and sent to Zimar to work their debts as galley-slaves, but that's how far slavery goes in Taldor imo. I don't think Taldor nobles possess slaves, but they surely have lots of serfs (which can live a much worse life than any slave), vagabonds and people unable to pay their debts can be sold into slavery untill they pay their debts off (which usually means the rest of their lives) on a slave galley in service of Zimar's navy.
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Thank you all for your thoughts.
Its easy playing an andoran who abhors slavery, because i do so myself. It is a bit harder to play a character for whom slavery might be so common that it isnt even on their radar.
Im just asking, because if say Im playing a character from qadira, or another from Cheliax, they might have very different attitudes towards slaves, and slavery, and i was just wondering what people thought. Thanks.
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There's also the River Kingdoms, and it's interesting that their reasons for being anti-slavery are completly different than the Andoran idealism.
Not completely. The whole area take their own idea of "human" rights very seriously indeed. But there are distinct differences, yeah.
Cheliax would have harsh and cruel laws regarding slavery, but, being tricky sorts of laws, there would likely be some provisions in there that could be turned around on the slave-owners if they broke some law on treatment of their slaves. Sacrificing them ritually might be totally fine, but slapping one in the street (particularly striking or harming or mistreating the slave of someone else, especially a social superior!) could lead to problems for the owner.
Agreed. However I think you're neglecting the cultural element, which is likely more important to how slaves are actually treated day-in and day-out than the law. I tend to think Chelaxian culture would be extremely cruel to slaves, seeing them as weak and unworthy of care.
Katapesh would have less laws (if any) that might be twisted to benefit the slave or protect the slave from abuse, as it's a place where the only laws that exist, do so to protect the wealthy, not the poor or disadvantaged.
Also agreed. But that said, I think that culturally, like the Middle East it's an analogue of, slaves would still be seen as people and treated little if any worse than the unenslaved poor (who are, in fairness, treated pretty badly sometimes).
Vudra, if it follows an Indian caste-system, might designate slaves as a specific caste, with social rules and traditions restricting exactly what sort of interactions are permitted. It's entirely possible that it's forbidden to even *touch* a slave, for a higher-caste individual, and that striking a slave could lead to the higher-caste person risking their own status.
Possible. Though the kind of ritual pollution that would create a law like that usually wouldn't include beating them (possibly to death) with an implement, like a stick.
On the other hand, if it really parallels Indian society, the very existence of slavery is unlikely. Low-caste people would often be treated like slaves by their social superiors, but nobody would technically own them, be able to sell them, or control anything about their personal lives (like who they see or marry...within their caste anyway).
Slavery in general seems like it would be more cruel in a situation where the owner and slave are of different races. Cheliaxian humans owning halflings would likely treat them far worse (and the laws would likely be far less protective of them) than they would other humans, particularly Chelaxian humans who have been sold into debt-slavery. In Sargava, they'd probably treat Mwangi slaves worse than fellow Chel-descended humans. Those who were enslaved as prisoners of war or as a sentence for crimes would also likely be treated worse (just as people in general have no sympathy for people in prison), considering abuse or mistreatment to be 'part of the punishment' or 'what they deserve' for their crimes.
Very much agreed. Racism added on top of slavery is going to get really ugly really quickly. Not that slavery isn’t already ugly, of course.
I would expect Numeria, if it has slavery, to be pretty brutal about it. The local authorities don't seem terribly compassionate, or bound by any sort of legal mandates other than those intended to maintain their own monopoly on power.
Also agreed, and the local culture isn't likely to give a damn what happens to a slave.
I don't really know much about Tien Xa (or slavery in countries analogous to that, for that matter), so no idea there.
Me either. :(
So much about Egyptian slavery is confused with work-gangs of free farmers and villagers, that it's hard to say what the life of an actual slave was like there, so parallels to Osirion, if even applicable, would be hard to make any meaningful assumptions.
Well, until recently it was under Qadiran control, so (reinstituted Egyptian laws aside) the cultural attitude of slaves as simply low-status people is likely to be very similar to that of Katapesh.
I could see Taldorans publically treating their slaves quite well, perhaps even indulgently, simply to keep up appearances, but some being quite cruel to them behind closed doors.
Does Taldor even have slavery? They strike me more as a serf kinda place. Which Andorens might well see as no different, but has some legitimate distinctions (you can't sell a serf). I agree with how they'd treat 'em, though.
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In terms of other nations:
First, generally, I suspect that many nations have basically no slavery within their borders. It's not actively illegal, and visitors with slaves keep them...it's just not a part of the culture to actively indulge in slavery. Now, on to the specifics:
Absalom: I honestly have no idea. Anyone read the Absalom book and want to chime in?
Belkzen: Slaves have no rights, and are indeed often used as provisions in lean times. Orcs are bastards.
Brevoy: Like Taldor, I really don't see slavery being the done thing in Brevoy (if only because they can escape to the Riverlands), but serfdom or some other form of land-bondage seems likely. How they're treated almost certainly depends on the local ruler's attitude. And basically only on that.
Cheliax: See above.
Druma: Slavery's probably practiced somewhat in Druma, but mostly only for highly skilled specialists who are not of the faith (who are nonetheless likely well cared for, since hey're valuable), simply because it's not an ideal plan economically for unskilled labor. People you can lay off if they get sick are actually cheaper long-term.
Five Kings Mountains: Probably consider the very idea of slavery odd. Too much unity is required in their dangerous home for the system to work well, and they likely just don't get it. Or care too much. Racial memories of dwarven slavery to the giants might lead to some serious dislike for the idea as well.
Galt: Slavery would be anathema to the theoretically egalitarian Galt. It's almost certainly technically illegal...there's just nobody who cares enough to do anything about it unless they need an excuse for a beheading (in which case owning slaves is almost as good an excuse as wearing flashy clothing).
Geb: Slavery is widespread, and slaves have no practical rights (their primary purpose being to serve as food for their undead masters). This one we actually know for a fact from the web-fiction.
Irrisen: Slavery of humans is institutional, universal, and hands-off. Baba Yaga explicitly enslaved all the humans, but they appear to live lives as standard peasants under a dictator. Which is to say, left to their own devices unless one of their Fey masters wants something from them, in which case they have no choice but to give it.
Isger: Almost certainly parrots Cheliax almost exactly, they have little choice but to do so, after all.
Jalmeray: I suspect harems, palace eunuchs, and other such things exist...but only as privileges of the wealthy. With the use of genies and elementals there's no need for a widespread use of slavery, so it's almost certainly relegated to a status symbol for the well-off. That being the case, slaves likely have few legal protections, but the culture is (like the other vaguely Middle-Eastern areas) likely not overly cruel. And a man who is cruel to his slaves is likely thought badly of.
Katapesh: See above.
Kyonin: I'd bet that enslaving an Elf is hideously illegal in Kyonin and that they do not keep slaves. I'd also bet they don't give a damn what the shorter-lived races do to each other in this area.
Lastwall: Again, the level of unity required for Lastwall to function almost necessitates a lack of widespread slavery. Having mainly been exposed to how Orcs keep slaves, they're likely extremely averse to the very idea. But they're a little too busy (and a lot too focused) to do things about it.
Land of the Linnorm Kings: Thralls almost certainly exist, as they did in real Viking culture. Also like in real Viking culture, they're likely treated pretty well, and (again) culturally simply seen as people of low-status. There are likely various ways to become free as well, with martial skill and bravery near the top of the list.
Realm of the Mammoth Lords: I’d tend to think that slavery is either accepted or not by each individual tribe, with varying cultural and legal attitudes.
The Mana Wastes: Alkenstar doesn’t strike me as culturally likely to hold many slaves, nor approve of it’s own citizens being enslaved…but as technically a part of Nex, Nex’ law holds true here.
Mendev: Slavery as such strikes me as uncommon to unknown in Mendev, for various reasons, but the status of the native Mendev people is little better than that of slaves in many other lands.
Molthune: The laborer/Citizen distinction is as close to slavery as Molthune gets, and it’s pretty damn close, but the universal ability to become a Citizen via military service, and the unity-centered culture likely results in a fair degree of legal and cultural protection for laborers. As long as they do their jobs and obey orders, anyway.
Mwangi Expanse: Varies wildly, with individual tribes each having their own opinions on the subject. The various Mwangi expanse books go into this in some detail, actually.
Nex: Slavery in the same vein as Qadira and Katapesh, with legal protections equivalent to Qadira’s seems to fit the cultural milieu. Racism is highly looked down on in Nex, so slaves of different races and ethnicities are almost certainly all treated equally.
Nidal: Slavery is culturally similar to cheliax, but the law gives slaves far fewer loopholes to exploit, and their masters are even more likely to be cruel, either for their own perverse enjoyment or that of their god.
Nirmathas: Slavery is almost certainly completely abhorrent to the people of Nirmathas, and while relieving visitors of their slaves may be technically illegal, it’s unlikely the common folk care…and very likely that they’ll do precisely that.
Numeria: See above.
Osirion: See above.
Qadira: Likely very similar to Katapesh culturally, with a lot more legal protections for slaves to boot. Following the whole Persian/Islamic empire thing, it's very like Qadira's one of the better places in the world to be a slave. Well, unless you object to potentially being made a eunuch or part of a harem (or both!), anyway.
Rahadoum: Well, slavery is explicitly commonplace, and morality primarily left to the individual family to arbitrate, so there’s likely a fair degree of variance. That said, the baseline, both culturally and legally, is likely similar to Nex, Qadira, and the other ‘middle eastern’ slaveholding cultures.
Razmiran: Slavery strikes me as something fairly common, and reserved for unbelievers in Razmiran. Seeing as it’s restricted to unbelievers, the cultural and legal protection for slaves is almost certainly nonexistent.
River Kingdoms: See above, with the hating of the slavery.
Sargava: Slavery is common in Sargava, and (as it is often combined with racism) unusually cruel and virulent. The laws are likely similar to those of Cheliax, but with cultural differences abounding, slaves are much less likely to know how to work the system.
The Shackles: Slavery is very clearly common in the Shaqckles, and ot seems likely that slaves have no legal rights of any sort. Culturally, a slave is still likely seen as human…but human life is cheap in the Shackles. A slave who saves their master’s life might be freed and rewarded, but the average standard of treatment is likely to be quite low.
Sodden Lands: Way too chaotic to make blanket statements about. Individual settlements almost certainly have differing traditions and beliefs regarding slavery.
Steaming Sea: Again, too chaotic to make any blanket statements about. Some places will endorse slavery, others abhor it.
Taldor: See above regarding serfs, not slaves.
Thuvia: Probably not too dissimilar to the other ‘middle eastern’ nations…though with no real-world equivalent, it’s hard to say.
Ustalav: Peasants would seem to be the rule, not slaves. And are likely treated different ways in the various counties, with the average being somewhere around “middling bad”.
Varisia: Slavery is pretty clearly just not practiced as such in Varisia. There are a lot of prejudices and social underclasses, but seemingly little or no direct slavery (though, to reiterate, it‘s very unlikely visitors‘ slaves would be freed).
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It needs to be remembered that there are different types of slavery throughout real world history. And though they're all, to us modern folk, abominable, you can still rank them against each other on a scale of nastiness.
For example if slaves are valuable commodities, they may have a higher level of protection and standard of living than the average peasant. after all, free human beings are not technically worth anything, while a skilled slave might fetch up to 500 gp or more.
There have also been systems where slavery is always set for a finite period of time, after which you get a lump sum of back-wages. Not what you would have made working during that time, obviously, but enough to start your life again.
Whereas there have also been systems where it's cheaper to buy new slaves than to feed the ones you already have. Yeah.
And in general, yes, slavery based on a specific race usually grants less protections. When slaves can be of the same race as their masters, then the masters start to get a little worried, and need to actually think about legalities and justifications and whatnot. Wherease race-based slavery is more along the lines of "Is his skin darker than mine? Great! I own him now!"
A quick grep through the Inner Sea World Guide:
Azlanti are pro-slavery
Keleshites are noted slavers
Bekyar Mwangi are also slavers that prey on other Mwangi
Ulfen keep thralls (time limited slaves with rights)
Halflings make good slaves
Half-orcs are often enslaved too
Gnolls tend to be slavers
Slaves can be owned in Absalom but buying or sellign is heavily restricted
Andoran has no slaves and is anti-slavery, the worst slavers they work against are Cheliax, Katapesh, Osirion, and Thuvia
Belkzen sells slaves to human countries
Cheliax uses slavery extensively
Druma doesn't have slaves, but does have indentured servants
Geb uses undead but also the living as slaves, and has laws for their proper treatment and maintenance
Fey enslave humans in Irrisen
Jalmeray is all about slaves
Katapesh is the center of the Inner Sea slave trade
The Mammoth Lords enslave young giants and raise them as tribesmen
Molthune has copious but very regulated slavery, there are rules and slaves can advance to citizenship in time.
Osirion has large scale slavery, slave armies, slave revolts, etc. People can get out of slavery.
Qadira has a lively slave trade, eve extending to genies.
Rahadoum has commonplace slavery.
In the River Kingdoms, slavery is an abomination.
Sargava? Slaves.
The Shackles? Slaves.
Those are the only ones mentioned. In general I'd assume any Chelish client states have slavery, but I've seen no trace of it in Varisia, Korvosa, Magnimar, or Ustalav. Do the Shoanti keep slaves? Wouldn't surprise me. James Jacobs mentioned slavers based in Riddleport, and that Kyonin is anti-slavery.
Roman slavery was very tightly regulated with laws that defined how and why a slave could gain their freedom.
Roman slaves were treated in a wide variety of manners, as would be expected, depending on the circumstances, the household and the time period. Obviously, life working in a mine as a Roman slave wouldn't be desired, by contrast to that of some house slaves. Some were so highly regarded that they were considered parts of families. Tombs and gravesites lend evidence to support the praise that some Romans felt towards their slaves. Some really worked what we might consider a regular shift and were free to come and as they pleased outside of that time. Others lived in the cruelest and harshest conditions, victim to the whims of society or the cruelty of their masters. In the late Republic, slaves were strictly seen as property by the vast majority, especially at a time when the availability of new 'property' was coming in at alarming numbers. Varro called them 'vocal agricultural implements' and likely would've preferred them without the vocal part. Cato the Elder, the great politician of 'Carthage must be destroyed' fame, once suggested that old and worn out slaves be sold, as a matter of economy.
Slaves, however, could be extraordinarily expensive, and the Roman household slave certainly had a different fate. The price for a male slave in Rome at the time of Augustus has been quoted at 500 denarii. A female could go for as much as 6,000 denarii. One recorded price in Pompeii at 79 AD indicates that a slave sold for 2,500 sestertii or 625 denarii. The expense of slaves made it lucrative for the smart Roman to treat them well and keep them healthy. Even in the case of gladiators, which is often misrepresented historically to show a non stop flow of blood and Roman decadence, it was considered a horrible disaster to lose a Gladiator to death or career ending injury. These slaves were worth their weight in gold, and while still kept closely guarded, they could also be afforded the greatest of luxuries when appropriate. Great fame and fortune could not only come to the owner, but the gladiators as well, and the best of the best were treated as such. Some Romans would even sell themselves into slavery, including the arena, in order to pay off tremendous debts or in an effort to become famous.
There were a number of Roman laws regarding slavery, and these too, changed over time. In the Republican period, as already suggested, slaves had no rights and were always subject to the whims of their owners. They did have some legal standing, however. They were allowed to act as witnesses in trials, and could gain freedom either through their owner's gratitude after loyal service or by buying it through the meager earnings they might collect over a lifetime of service. For example, owners in the Republic had the right to kill or mutilate slaves at a whim, but later imperial laws took this right away, though in practice this law could be largely ignored.
As the empire changed, and social conditions along with it, the spread of slavery slowed and eventually was transformed. The Christian church and its policies regarding bondage helped alter the conditional mindset of the populace, despite the fact that it and its priest often owned slaves as well. More importantly perhaps than the religious notions, however, were the economic and even military conditions of the time. As Roman military objectives were altered from one of conquest to border defense, the continual mass influx of new slave labor ceased. The cost to purchase slaves along with a completely destablized economy made employment of the free masses at cheap wages a far more attractive alternative. The shift from central Roman Imperial power to local lords, kings and feudalism brought about a new condition of serf or peasant labor where the masses were not necessarily owned slaves but were tied directly to the land owned by these local lords. While in theory this evolution from ancient slavery to middle age European serfdom may have been more attractive, the conditions of the time and the drastically limited personal opportunities may have been far worse, or at least no better than the ancient Roman form of slavery.
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It exists in Varisia, but it's definitely kept on the downlow in Korvosa and Magnimar.
For the life of me I can't recall where, but I thought I remembered something about slavery in Osirion, at least where it involved Osiriani slaves, having religious connotations. Exactly what, I can't remember, but it likely had to do with absolute service to the Pharaoh and thus the divine forces that guide the nation, from the Osiriani point of view at least.
All things considered, I doubt Hermea's populace could truly be considered free, but they likely wouldn't see it that way as they go on living in their gilded cage.
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For the life of me I can't recall where, but I thought I remembered something about slavery in Osirion, at least where it involved Osiriani slaves, having religious connotations. Exactly what, I can't remember, but it likely had to do with absolute service to the Pharaoh and thus the divine forces that guide the nation, from the Osiriani point of view at least.
Egyptian slaves were owned by the temples, and not even Pharoah was allowed to own a slave or interfere with temple business. (The last Pharoah who did was King Tut's dad, and was assassinated and replaced with his 14 year old son, who pretty much at knifepoint undid all of his dad's temple-busting political agenda and put the temples back in charge...) Even the slaves that the temples 'graciously' loaned to Pharoah (free of charge, oh-so-generously, everyone else had to pay the temples to rent slaves for contracted terms of service) were ultimately loyal to the temples that 'gifted' them, and reported back on Pharoah's every move to their 'owners.'
Creepy political situation, being the 'god on earth' to the people, and yet surrounded on all sides in your own palatial home by servants of clergy who dictate what you can and cannot say or do, and are reporting your every move to people who have made it very clear that if you don't play nice, your term as 'Pharoah for life' will end abruptly...
Osirion seems very clearly *not* Egypt, in this respect, as the Ruby Prince may have some questionable alliances with elemental powers, but certainly doesn't seem to be a puppet to the local clergy of Pharasma, Nethys, etc. Likewise, the dominant religions don't include either of the LE powers that would be most slave-happy, suggesting that the local churches are less involved in the slave-trade than the 'quasi-Egypt' could suggest. It would likely be purely a mercantile thing, with less of the religious mandates that crop up in Nidal or Cheliax (thanks to the influence of Zon-Kuthon and Asmodeus).
I found this paper whilst looking for information on slavery in China..it seems to summarize things fairly concisely and has a lot of references for those who want to go further into the subject
Why has no one mentioned Kaer Maga?
It's all issues of slavery in a nutshell:
There are districts where slavery is the most common thing (Ankar Te e.g. where even zombies are still enslaved) and the most freedom loving districts like the Bottoms, where the Fremen live total democracy.
Just take a look at the City of Strangers sourcebook.
Now perhaps this is a truly tasteless question. If I offend anyone I apologize.
I believe Andoran is one of the few places where slavery is outlawed. How would slavery differ in Cheliax, Osiriion, Qadira, and Taldor, The Mwangi expanse, Vudra, Tian Xia? What are your thoughts?Thanks.
Something to also note would be the use of indentured servitude or similar systems as a proxy to slavery, they aren't one in the same but to an outsider they wouldn't look much difference. Also, not all "slaves" are equal in standing depending on the nature of how they came into slavery (conquered versus sold at market).
Watch the HBO series Rome and you can get a wide range of ideas of how slaves could be treated. In fact, I based my Cheliax cultural around ideas gained from that series.
What I've done as a twist is have it where public mistreatment of slavery was akin to public mistreatment of a child, it wasn't tolerated in more civil type societies (Taldor/Cheliax). In less culturally advanced nations, slavery may tend to be more base and brutal.
In cultures that are modeled after a stringent caste system (Vudra, Osirion), I'd have a mirrored caste system for slaves (educated, skilled, unskilled, laborer, etc)