"Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear."
How does one adjudicate glamer effects? Say, for example, a glabrezu (normally a huge creature) uses it's veil spell-like ability on itself to appear as though a human. He now looks, feels, tastes, smells, and sounds like a human.
Then he enters a tavern. A tavern sized for humans. What happens? Can he even get through the door? Does it "mysteriously" explode when he forces his way through, leaving everyone wondering why the door frame (and much of the surrounding wall) spontaneously turned into splinters?
What if he interacts with a real human, say, to shake their hand? Though the demon's hand will feel like a human hand to the person shaking it (if they fail their save), will the demon not crush/ravage the hand he shakes in his immense claw? How does the magic hide that?
What if he were to try and get into a longboat? A longboat that could readily hold the weight of several humans, but not a glabrezu. Does it sink? What would the demon spy say to the other sailors in explanation?
I know the developers wanted to leave various things for the GMs to adjudicate themselves, but where does one even begin with glamer effects?
"Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear."
How does one adjudicate glamer effects? Say, for example, a glabrezu (normally a huge creature) uses it's veil spell-like ability on itself to appear as though a human. He now looks, feels, tastes, smells, and sounds like a human.
Then he enters a tavern. A tavern sized for humans. What happens? Can he even get through the door? Does it "mysteriously" explode when he forces his way through, leaving everyone wondering why the door frame (and much of the surrounding wall) spontaneously turned into splinters?
What if he interacts with a real human, say, to shake their hand? Though the demon's hand will feel like a human hand to the person shaking it (if they fail their save), will the demon not crush/ravage the hand he shakes in his immense claw? How does the magic hide that?
What if he were to try and get into a longboat? A longboat that could readily hold the weight of several humans, but not a glabrezu. Does it sink? What would the demon spy say to the other sailors in explanation?
I know the developers wanted to leave various things for the GMs to adjudicate themselves, but where does one even begin with glamer effects?
It depends on the particular spell. Give me a spell and I will give an opinion.
"Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear."
How does one adjudicate glamer effects? Say, for example, a glabrezu (normally a huge creature) uses it's veil spell-like ability on itself to appear as though a human. He now looks, feels, tastes, smells, and sounds like a human.
Then he enters a tavern. A tavern sized for humans. What happens? Can he even get through the door? Does it "mysteriously" explode when he forces his way through, leaving everyone wondering why the door frame (and much of the surrounding wall) spontaneously turned into splinters?
What if he interacts with a real human, say, to shake their hand? Though the demon's hand will feel like a human hand to the person shaking it (if they fail their save), will the demon not crush/ravage the hand he shakes in his immense claw? How does the magic hide that?
What if he were to try and get into a longboat? A longboat that could readily hold the weight of several humans, but not a glabrezu. Does it sink? What would the demon spy say to the other sailors in explanation?
I know the developers wanted to leave various things for the GMs to adjudicate themselves, but where does one even begin with glamer effects?
For the glabrezu issue specifically: if you/your GM decides to take the glabrezu's true size into account (which would be the verisimilitude approach): remember that creatures can move through small spaces, it just takes them longer to do so. Just like it takes a Medium size creature 2 move to get through a tight space. Unusually small spaces might require the glabrezu to make an Escape Artist check to squeeze through. He'd more likely get stuck than immediately break the doorway or what-have-you. (He could break the doorway to free himself.)
Remember that glabrezus are smart (16 Int, well above average and this is what they're good at). The whole reason they have the veil ability is to deceive others. The shaking hands issue--he's smart enough to think to very lightly touch the person he's shaking hands with, and the glamer does the rest of the work.
With the entering a door through which he cannot fit without breaking it, or getting into a small boat--if the glabrezu decides the physical limitations would compromise the illusion, he would find a way around it. Rather than go into the tavern, he sends an emissary. Rather than step into a boat, he feigns a great fear of water, and tells the group he'll pay someone to fly or teleport him over later (and with that +28 to Bluff it will likely work on the average mark).
I imagine why it's not explicitly laid out because some GMs are well equipped to remember to accommodate for the complex issues of reality vs. illusion. Others may just decide that if taste, texture, etc. can be altered by perceptions, that the creature can also be made lighter, etc. because they don't have the time to figure it out (or it doesn't occur to them). With a creature like the glabrezu in particular, the GM could note that the creature is specifically a demon of deception and his spelllike ability accounts for physical restraints as part of his nature (as not all spelllike abilities exactly replicate a spell). It's up to how much both GMs and players can track. I personally would favor working with the verisimilitude where possible, but I also am sympathetic to the fact that even the best GMs don't always think of everything, given the tremendous amount of things they have to track.
It depends on the particular spell. Give me a spell and I will give an opinion.
I am primarily concerning myself with glamer spells that include the tactile/touch sensation, the only two which I know of off the top of my head are Veil and Mirage Arcana.
For example, if I used Mirage Arcana to create a three story building out of nothing, could characters walk up the stairs onto the third floor? Would the illusion support their weight? Or would they still be on the ground and simply think they are on the third floor of a building? If it is the latter, what happens when a character jumps off the "roof" of the building?
If my sorcerer tries to blow down a "door" with fireball, does the fireball detonate prematurely, or does it fly through the entirety of the building to to detonate elsewhere?
At what point does a character get a save for interacting with this kind of illusion (it's SO complete)?
For Veil, see some of my examples above.
It depends on the particular spell. Give me a spell and I will give an opinion.I am primarily concerning myself with glamer spells that include the tactile/touch sensation, the only two which I know of off the top of my head are Veil and Mirage Arcana.
For example, if I used Mirage Arcana to create a three story building out of nothing, could characters walk up the stairs onto the third floor? Would the illusion support their weight? Or would they still be on the ground and simply think they are on the third floor of a building? If it is the latter, what happens when a character jumps off the "roof" of the building?
If my sorcerer tries to blow down a "door" with fireball, does the fireball detonate prematurely, or does it fly through the entirety of the building to to detonate elsewhere?
At what point does a character get a save for interacting with this kind of illusion (it's SO complete)?
For Veil, see some of my examples above.
I don't think it would support their weight. Of course this is a gamist answer to prevent using illusion from doing things they are not supposed to do. Common sense at this point seems to say they would not it is not there, but since the spell requires a save I would say "the stairs don't seem to be able to support your weight".
The other idea is to have them think they climbed the building but they really did not. If they jumped offed I would allow another will save, but I would not let them take real damage either way. They might be allowed to believe they are hurt though.I would have the appearance of the door being blown up, unless the sorcerer made the will save. I think the intent of the spells is hard to reproduce, which is why they had to leave open.
I personally like the idea of someone thinking they are climbing a building, while the other party members are looking at them like they have lost their minds.
As for Veil I would allow them to see what would happen if the illusion were real. If they tried to punch the "human" in the face he might get a black eye as an example. The demon may have to be careful to avoid walking into an area that is so small he can't squeeze into though, but in that case he could just make up some reason as to why can't go there.
PS;Personally I think glamers should be in the illusion and mind affecting departments.
For example, if I used Mirage Arcana to create a three story building out of nothing, could characters walk up the stairs onto the third floor? Would the illusion support their weight? Or would they still be on the ground and simply think they are on the third floor of a building? If it is the latter, what happens when a character jumps off the "roof" of the building?This actually is in the core rules. In the section under figment.
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.
So, no you can't walk up an illusionary staircase. Falling off an illusionary roof wouldn't cause damage.
When they go to climb the stairs this is the point I would call for a save because the illusion has now been interacted with. If the save is failed it becomes a little more difficult on what to rule. If the caster is still concentrating I would rule that he could make it look like the stairs collapse. If he wasn't concentrating, I would rule that if they tried to climb the staircase it would not support their weight and they are faced with proof the illusion is not real. Nothing seems that the illusion automatically adapts to impossibilities by changing the illusion such that it appears the stairs collapse.
If my sorcerer tries to blow down a "door" with fireball, does the fireball detonate prematurely, or does it fly through the entirety of the building to to detonate elsewhere?
At what point does a character get a save for interacting with this kind of illusion (it's SO complete)?
This depends on exactly how the sorcerer controls the fireball. It's a point and shoot kind of thing (the caster selects when the fireball explodes). So the sorcerer will probably have the fireball detonate next to the door. Which will make the fireball explode in apparently the right place. Now, if the sorcerer tries to make the fireball explode on the other side of the door (or have the fireball explode on contact) then nothing actually contacts the fireball and no explosion. The sorcerer is presented with proof the door doesn't exist.
I would call for a save when he cast fireball, because he is interacting with it. This is chance to notice that something doesn't seem quite right. Perhaps he notices that the blast doesn't behave exactly like one placed next to a wall or that damage doesn't seem right. Under active control, the caster could make it appeared damaged. Although again I note nothing in the spell says that it alters appearances automatically based on interactions. I will admit I might be leaning on the conservative side, making the illusions be perhaps a little too weak for their level.
Hoping for more discussion on the matter.
With Mirage Arcana, that's a very detailed illusion you're dealing with; saves for trying to climb, but if failed, they THINK they're climbing. Probably another save when they try to look around from the top of the tower, but don't actually have an increase in altitude. No need to collapse the stairs.