I'll be participating in a 1 shot in several weeks time with some old college buddies and I'm torn between 2 character ideas. I'm hoping some of the glorious members of these boards might help me hone the ideas and pick one over the other.
At this point, the only other character idea that I’ve heard one of the other guys discuss is a negative energy dhampir cleric. I think he basically wants to selective channel to avoid us, wade into bad guys, and go nova with his channels. Whether he winds up going with that or not remains to be seen, but he seems pretty keen on it.
From what the GM has indicated, it’s looking like we need to show up with a level 15 character in hand and ready to play. (Epic Fantasy Point Buy, standard WBL w/ no one item costing more than 40%)
My two ideas are:
and
This is where I need some help. If I go with the Paladin/Sorcerer/ArcaneArcher, what would be the best way to split his levels? I’ve heard that Paladins can be fairly decent archers, and it seems the Paladin and Sorcerer classes will synergize well with a good Charisma score. From my perusing the AA class, it seems to emphasize the archery aspect of a character over the arcane, so I expect him to rely more on his bow than on his spells. (I have a Fighter 1/Diviner 6/Eldritch Knight 10 in a different campaign that is almost the reverse of this, his spells are his main strength and his physical combat abilities are 2nd, so I think they'd play differently enough for me to still really enjoy this)
The other idea – the Nature Warden, would have an animal companion equal to a level 14 druid’s and would cast like a level 12 druid if I’m reading things correctly. That being said, any suggestions on race and animal companion?
I suppose I could go with a more typical Druid 3/Ranger 3/Nature Warden 9 – but I lose out on 3 more caster levels if I go that route.
Any suggestions?
Do you know anything about what kind of adventure the one shot is going to be?
Do you know anything about what kind of adventure the one shot is going to be?
An intense dungeon crawl, from what I've gathered. It's a homebrew one he's cooking up, but his favorite pre-packaged adventure to run has always been the Tomb of Horrors, so I expect some inspiration to come from that terrible place of eternal PC suffering.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish with the druid character? Is favored terrain something you are actually interested in? Or is it just to qualify for natures warden as a druid? If so what is it in Natures warden that is so appealing?
As for the Paly/sorc/arcarch I think it depends again on what you are trying accomplish. How much caster and how much combat do you want to be? I think arcane archer is better off leaning heavier towards more levels of paladin then sorceror personally, iterative attacks are an archers friend. SO something like Paladin 5/Sorc2/Arcane Archer 8. This gives you the deepest run into arcane archer you can get, you'll have 8th level casting and thus some very useful 4th level spells and you get a solid slice of the paladins abilities.
How big is the party going to be?
If it's relatively small, the animal companion from the Warden would be a welcome secondary tank, and the healing from the druid levels would be useful, especially if the cleric is channeling negative energy.
If it's a relatively large party (5+), then the paladin/archer might be useful in tight quarters, with special arrows zinging around corners and allies to hit the BBEG. Also, a smite evil phase arrow is almost guaranteed to hit!
What exactly are you trying to accomplish with the druid character? Is favored terrain something you are actually interested in? Or is it just to qualify for natures warden as a druid? If so what is it in Natures warden that is so appealing?
My idea for the druid was to provide supplemental healing, as I expect the aforementioned negative energy cleric to focus less on stiching us up and more on things like harm. Favored Terrain is more for qualifying for Nature Warden, but it's also a feature I like - especially if it turns out 90% of the adventure is in ruin or caves or some such.
This idea is the more nebulous of the two, but I think it's more versatile than the arcane archer idea. If we wind up short a front line fighter, SNA and my animal companion can fit. If we're low on heals, I can step into that gap a bit. Buffs? I can do that too. Perhaps straight up druid would be better?
As for the Paly/sorc/arcarch I think it depends again on what you are trying accomplish. How much caster and how much combat do you want to be?
Yeah, this idea is one that I would prefer to focus on combat over caster.
I think arcane archer is better off leaning heavier towards more levels of paladin then sorceror personally, iterative attacks are an archers friend. SO something like Paladin 5/Sorc2/Arcane Archer 8. This gives you the deepest run into arcane archer you can get, you'll have 8th level casting and thus some very useful 4th level spells and you get a solid slice of the paladins abilities.
This is right where I'm needing advice with this concept, trying really to figure out if I should lean toward paladin 7 and another application of smite evil each day, or go whole hog with AA as best I can.
What you propose here looks solid. I like it.
How big is the party going to be?
3 or 4 PCs, we're expecting 4 but one of our number's schedule is still in flux at this point.
If it's relatively small, the animal companion from the Warden would be a welcome secondary tank, and the healing from the druid levels would be useful, especially if the cleric is channeling negative energy.
Agreed. Very much agreed.
If it's a relatively large party (5+), then the paladin/archer might be useful in tight quarters, with special arrows zinging around corners and allies to hit the BBEG. Also, a smite evil phase arrow is almost guaranteed to hit!
I had not considered the likelihood of tight quarters, regardless of party size. That would make an archer doubly nice and, if I went with the nature warden idea, mean that a medium sized animal companion would likely be ideal.
I definately think the straigh druid would be more effective in the role you suggest, the only thing you are really losing is the favored terrain.
At the same time, I think druid will have problems in a straight dungeon delve. Your best assest (in wild shape and animal companion) are big, large at least. Dungeons tend to be narrow, tight spaces. I think personally you are better off with the paly/sorc/arcane archer.
Paladin 4/Sorc (Arcane Bloodline) 3/ArcArch 9
Channel energy (which qualifies you for Channel Smite), 2 smites per day, 4th-level spells, quick-and-easy metamagics, and an Arcane Bond (which you will make your bow, which lets you add enchantments to it at half-price).
Couple things are wrong with this, first this is a 16th level character (he is making a 15th level one). Second, Paladin4/Sorc3 doesnt qualify you for Arcane archer. You need +6bab, Paladin 4 = 4, Sorc 3 = 1.
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Couple things are wrong with this, first this is a 16th level character (he is making a 15th level one). Second, Paladin4/Sorc3 doesnt qualify you for Arcane archer. You need +6bab, Paladin 4 = 4, Sorc 3 = 1.
Oops. Didn't double-check the BAB scale and missed it. Also I suck at math (apparently). I'd do Paladin 4/Sorc 4/ArcArch 7 then.
Couple things are wrong with this, first this is a 16th level character (he is making a 15th level one). Second, Paladin4/Sorc3 doesnt qualify you for Arcane archer. You need +6bab, Paladin 4 = 4, Sorc 3 = 1.Paladin 4/Sorc (Arcane Bloodline) 3/ArcArch 9
Channel energy (which qualifies you for Channel Smite), 2 smites per day, 4th-level spells, quick-and-easy metamagics, and an Arcane Bond (which you will make your bow, which lets you add enchantments to it at half-price).
Why would you do that? You lose 1 bab, and you lose out on hail of arrows and divine bond. All you gain is a 9th caster level over 8th, and still only have 4th level spells. Is the 1 extra 4th level spell and 1 3rd level spell per day worth it?
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Why would you do that? You lose 1 bab, and you lose out on hail of arrows and divine bond. All you gain is a 9th caster level over 8th, and still only have 4th level spells. Is the 1 extra 4th level spell and 1 3rd level spell per day worth it?
You're not going to get Hail of Arrows anyway, unless you do Paladin 5/Sorc 2/ArcArch 8. But then your spells are crap, you don't get the 3rd-level bloodline ability OR spell, and you gain Divine Bond which lets you add a whole +1 to your weapon and make it shed light.
EDIT: I guess you're still getting 4th-level spells this way. Yeah, do that. Pal 5/Sorc 2/AA 8. With only 4 spell levels, the metamagic trick isn't going to help much anyway. Can you tell I don't play hybrids much? :)
Paladin 5 / Sorc 2 / ArcArch 8, eh?
With this sequence of levels, each arrow fired by the character would be distance (+1), and elemental burst (+2). If I had a +5 bow, that’s an effective enhancement bonus of +7. I could then turn on divine bond (weapon) once/day and add, say, ghost touch or bane (+1). If we were to happen to level up during the adventure, bumping AA to 9 would add holy (+2) to the arrows as well, bringing them up to the cap of +10.
I have to say, I really like the sound of shooting +5 distance, [insert bbeg’s type here] bane, holy, shocking burst arrows.
With a BAB of +14, rapid shot and manyshot, that could feasibly be a full attack of +17(counts twice)/+17/+12/+7, and that’s only with the bow’s enhancement bonus factored in.
Yowza. I like it. A lot.
I'm think you guys are right – I’m finding I like the sounds of this more as well.
That being said, what spells should I be picking up for spells known? As you've pointed out, it's just the 1 4th level spell. Can I imbue arrow w/ acid pit?
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For 4th-level spells, I like calcific touch myself. Yeah, it's not going to be one that you'll want to use on an imbued arrow, but with your character's beefy hit points (mostly d10s) you should be able to wade in and make devastating use of this spell against large, single-target threats. At 1d4 points of DEX damage (save does not negate) per round, with your attack bonus that should have zero difficulty hitting a touch AC, that's about 3-4 rounds from a dead enemy, even if it had a ton of HP and DR/resistance.
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That being said, what spells should I be picking up for spells known? As you've pointed out, it's just the 1 4th level spell. Can I imbue arrow w/ acid pit?
Leaving aside direct attack spells you can place on arrows via Arcane Archer for the moment:
Gravity Bow's an obvious one. I'd also grab Mage Armor, personally, since a Wand version won't last you all day. Expeditious Retreat is also cool (for mobility), as is Vanish (for escaping melee).
Glitterdust is of course, always nice, as are Blur and Mirror Image. Arrow Eruption is hilariously awesome.
Heroism is very good, as are Haste, and Displacement, and Fly. Flame Arrow is also very appropriate.
In terms of 4th levels, Greater Invisibility and Fire Shield are both excellent for preventing or punishing hand-to-hand fights.
So how's this looks for a preliminary skeleton of this divine marksman? This doesn't include any gear or skills or hps... just his stats, feat selection, and spell selection.
Paladin 5 / Sorcerer 2 / Arcane Archer 8
Str 14 (14 base)
Dex 18 (16 base, +2 race)
Con 12 (13 base, -2 race, +1 lvl 12)
Int 14 (12 base, +2 race)
Wis 10 (10 base)
Cha 16 (14 base, +1 lvl 4, +1 lvl 8)
Feats
Lvl 1 Point Blank Shot
Lvl 3 Precise Shot
Lvl 5 Rapid Shot
Lvl 7 Manyshot
Lvl 9 Deadly Aim
Lvl 11 Arcane Strike
Lvl 13 Arcane Armor Training
Lvl 15 Expanded Arcana
Sorcerer Spells Known
Cantrips: 8
detect magic, detect poison, read magic, dancing lights, light, ghost sound, mage hand, mending;
Level 1: 5
vanish, gravity bow, grease, mage armor, shield;
Level 2: 3
arrow eruption, glitterdust, blur;
Level 3: 2
haste, fly;
Level 4:2
acid pit (or black tentacles… either one), improved invisibility;
Sorcerer Spells Per Day
Lvl 1: 7/ Lvl 2: 7/ Lvl 3: 6/ Lvl 4: 3
Looks good except I would take Haste over heroism any day or the week,
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So how's this looks for a preliminary skeleton of this divine marksman? This doesn't include any gear or skills or hps... just his stats, feat selection, and spell selection.
** spoiler omitted **
You might want to just stick with Chr 14 sans items and raise Dex or Str with level-ups instead. Save DCs are not your forte anyhow, and with a headband of Charisma +4, you'll get bonus spells for every spell level you possess anyhow.
With Mage Armor, there's no need for Arcane Armor Training...which can't be used simultaneously with Arcane Strike anyway (since both use Swift Actions). On the other hand, as I recall, you can get in a Mithal Chain Shirt with AAT, so that'll net you higher total AC. So definite advantages either way.
Personally, I'd either ditch the Arcane Armor Training and rely on spells and non-armor protective items, or ditch Arcane Strike and Mage Armor, and grab Arcane Armor Mastery and, oh, maybe Elven Chain Mail or Celestial Armor. The first will net you better non-armor items, and increased damage, the second a somewhat better AC. Choose one of the two as is your preference.
Also, by my reading, you only get one 4th level spell. Sadly.
Looks good except I would take Haste over heroism any day or the week,
Excellent call. Previous post editted to reflect this bit of invaluable wisdom.
You might want to just stick with Chr 14 sans items and raise Dex or Str with level-ups instead. Save DCs are not your forte anyhow, and with a headband of Charisma +4, you'll get bonus spells for every spell level you possess anyhow.
I wasn't thinking about the Charisma modifier insofar as save DCs, but rather for the boost to saves and social skill checks (should any present themselves). Plus, it's extra uses of lay on hands, and at only 2d6 per, the more the merrier methinks. You make a good point though - definitely one to ponder.
With Mage Armor, there's no need for Arcane Armor Training...which can't be used simultaneously with Arcane Strike anyway (since both use Swift Actions). On the other hand, as I recall, you can get in a Mithal Chain Shirt with AAT, so that'll net you higher total AC. So definite advantages either way.
Personally, I'd either ditch the Arcane Armor Training and rely on spells and non-armor protective items, or ditch Arcane Strike and Mage Armor, and grab Arcane Armor Mastery and, oh, maybe Elven Chain Mail or Celestial Armor. The first will net you better non-armor items, and increased damage, the second a somewhat better AC. Choose one of the two as is your preference.
The idea between the two, is that I could turn on AAT when say, buffing allies or using imbue arrow and ensure the spell is cast w/out risk of ASF. When full attacking, I can turn on AS instead and layer on an additional +2 damage w/ each arrow.
Also, by my reading, you only get one 4th level spell. Sadly.
Exactly why I burned a feat on Expanded Arcana. Hip hip!
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I wasn't thinking about the Charisma modifier insofar as save DCs, but rather for the boost to saves and social skill checks (should any present themselves). Plus, it's extra uses of lay on hands, and at only 2d6 per, the more the merrier methinks. You make a good point though - definitely one to ponder.
I'd still skip it. high Charisma is wonderful for Paladins, but I don't think it's worth 1 AC and +1 to hit on all attacks, or +1 damage each attack.
And frankly, it's cheaper to raise with magic items since you need to jack up both Str and Dex with a single belt, but need no other mental stat boosts
The idea between the two, is that I could turn on AAT when say, buffing allies or using imbue arrow and ensure the spell is cast w/out risk of ASF. When full attacking, I can turn on AS instead and layer on an additional +2 damage w/ each arrow.
That's valid enough. You should still ditch Mage Armor if you're going to be wearing actual armor, though.
Exactly why I burned a feat on Expanded Arcana. Hip hip!
Whoops. I entirely missed that. My bad.
Oh, and on another note, remember your two 1st level Paladin Spells. Some of those are just neat (Heroic Defiance is a literal lifesaver, for example).
And frankly, it's cheaper to raise with magic items since you need to jack up both Str and Dex with a single belt, but need no other mental stat boosts.
Excellent point. Had not considered that angle, and it's a good angle to consider.
That's valid enough. You should still ditch Mage Armor if you're going to be wearing actual armor, though.
Duly noted. Another good call.
Oh, and on another note, remember your two 1st level Paladin Spells. Some of those are just neat (Heroic Defiance is a literal lifesaver, for example).
This is a spell list I've never actually looked at before, so it's one I intend to pour over later. I vaguely recall from my Neverwinter Nights days that bless weapon is the bomb-diggity, but I need to check what else has been introduced. I'll be sure to check out heroic defiance, though. Lifesavers are good things to have, after all.