Wording-
Creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it) can't speak any deliberate and intentional lies. Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area. Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth. Creatures who leave the area are free to speak as they choose.
So can a caster tell if the target made their save or not? by the wording it does not seem so, but if they can't the spell becomes completely useless.
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Wording-
Creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it) can't speak any deliberate and intentional lies. Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area. Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth. Creatures who leave the area are free to speak as they choose.
So can a caster tell if the target made their save or not? by the wording it does not seem so, but if they can't the spell becomes completely useless.
Just to add to this from the section on saving throws-
A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Only Zone of truth is an area of effect spell, so by RAW you can't tell if the opponent saved or not, which really makes this a completely useless spell
No... it makes it a less useful spell than you thought it was.
Is the spell augury "completely useless" because it doesn't always get your questions answered correctly?
Its useless because whoever you are interrogating, may have made their save and be lying, or may not have and be telling the truth, you have no idea which, so have no idea whether the information you are getting is good information or not, so what exactly is the use of this spell? Give me an example where its useful?
Its not completely useless. If you want to know something, and they start getting very evasive/quiet about the answer, they probably failed their save. If they are happily answering everything (don't forget to make your sense motive checks) you can get a good idea that maybe they passed the check.
Also, if you were trying to question them, and they were lying (you passed a sense motive for example) but you want the truth out of them, so you cast the spell. If they keep giving you the same lie, you know they resisted, if they get quiet/evasive/etc you know they failed, and can proceed to "convince" them (whatever methods you prefer) to tell you the truth.
Its useless because whoever you are interrogating, may have made their save and be lying, or may not have and be telling the truth, you have no idea which, so have no idea whether the information you are getting is good information or not, so what exactly is the use of this spell? Give me an example where its useful?
It's the same as most mind effecting spells. Unless you think any area spell that gives a saving throw is useless?
It still gives you a higher probability of getting the truth, and you still have the sense motive skill.
Its not completely useless. If you want to know something, and they start getting very evasive/quiet about the answer, they probably failed their save. If they are happily answering everything (don't forget to make your sense motive checks) you can get a good idea that maybe they passed the check.
Also, if you were trying to question them, and they were lying (you passed a sense motive for example) but you want the truth out of them, so you cast the spell. If they keep giving you the same lie, you know they resisted, if they get quiet/evasive/etc you know they failed, and can proceed to "convince" them (whatever methods you prefer) to tell you the truth.
And if they are smart and they make their save, they pretend to get evasive or not to be able to lie to make you think they are under the effect of it and then lie away. Honestly if I was going to determine it with a sense motive check, what am I wasting a 2nd level spell slot for, the magic is not really helping any at all.
Its useless because whoever you are interrogating, may have made their save and be lying, or may not have and be telling the truth, you have no idea which, so have no idea whether the information you are getting is good information or not, so what exactly is the use of this spell? Give me an example where its useful?
It's the same as most mind effecting spells. Unless you think any area spell that gives a saving throw is useless?
It still gives you a higher probability of getting the truth, and you still have the sense motive skill.
It gives you higher probability of getting the truth, but you have no idea if it is the truth, so what good is it?
Sense Motive won't tell you the truth but it will give you a good chance of telling if the spell failed.
If you're so concerned with zone of truth not failing then take abilities and items to boost the DC. It's a 2nd level spell, it will have limitations.
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And if they are smart and they make their save, they pretend to get evasive or not to be able to lie to make you think they are under the effect of it and then lie away. Honestly if I was going to determine it with a sense motive check, what am I wasting a 2nd level spell slot for, the magic is not really helping any at all.
Unless they have spellcraft, and successfully identify the spell you cast, if they make their save, they don't know what you tried to do, just that you tried to do something. You could also have it cast in the room before bringing them into it, preventing them from getting a check, unless they cast detect magic (and if you're to the point of questioning them, that shouldn't be an issue.)
Wording-
Creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it) can't speak any deliberate and intentional lies. Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area. Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth. Creatures who leave the area are free to speak as they choose.
So can a caster tell if the target made their save or not? by the wording it does not seem so, but if they can't the spell becomes completely useless.
Notice the wording. "Each potentialy affected is allowed a save to avoid the effects" and "Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment". My understanding is that a creature who failed its save knows it is affected by a zone of truth, and may be accordingly evasive. While a creature who made its save simply know that something tried to affect them, but have no idea what exactly. Not perfect, but at least the creature won't be all "He thinks I am under a Zone of Truth, so I'll absue the situation!"
Sense motive is still needed, but the spell helps getting a lot of details. Just plan your interogation accordingly.
And if they are smart and they make their save, they pretend to get evasive or not to be able to lie to make you think they are under the effect of it and then lie away. Honestly if I was going to determine it with a sense motive check, what am I wasting a 2nd level spell slot for, the magic is not really helping any at all.Unless they have spellcraft, and successfully identify the spell you cast, if they make their save, they don't know what you tried to do, just that you tried to do something. You could also have it cast in the room before bringing them into it, preventing them from getting a check, unless they cast detect magic (and if you're to the point of questioning them, that shouldn't be an issue.)
Read the spell description it says
Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment.
AND
Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area.
So they are aware of the enchantment they are under and they get a save when they walk in if it was pre-cast
Read the spell description it says
Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment.
AND
Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area.
So they are aware of the enchantment they are under and they get a save when they walk in if it was pre-cast
You missed my point. Yes, IF they FAIL their save, they are aware of the effect.
IF they SUCCEED on their save, they do not know what the effect was, and thus cannot try to be evasive to pretend they failed.
Wording-
Creatures within the emanation area (or those who enter it) can't speak any deliberate and intentional lies. Each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects when the spell is cast or when the creature first enters the emanation area. Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment. Therefore, they may avoid answering questions to which they would normally respond with a lie, or they may be evasive as long as they remain within the boundaries of the truth. Creatures who leave the area are free to speak as they choose.
So can a caster tell if the target made their save or not? by the wording it does not seem so, but if they can't the spell becomes completely useless.
Notice the wording. "Each potentialy affected is allowed a save to avoid the effects" and "Affected creatures are aware of this enchantment". My understanding is that a creature who failed its save knows it is affected by a zone of truth, and may be accordingly evasive. While a creature who made its save simply know that something tried to affect them, but have no idea what exactly. Not perfect, but at least the creature won't be all "He thinks I am under a Zone of Truth, so I'll absue the situation!"
Sense motive is still needed, but the spell helps getting a lot of details. Just plan your interogation accordingly.
Hrmm, if your intelligent, about to be interrogated and you save vs a spell and don't know what it is, wouldn't you assume it might be a zone of truth and act accordingly?
Hrmm, if your intelligent, about to be interrogated and you save vs a spell and don't know what it is, wouldn't you assume it might be a zone of truth and act accordingly?
I'd probably assume its a charm person/monster (as appropriate) instead. Much more likely to be effective, they know if it is successful, and now you won't hide nearly as much from them.
Oh, but this is assuming that the person being interrogated has spellcraft or knowledge(arcana) or spellcasting levels.
Hrmm, if your intelligent, about to be interrogated and you save vs a spell and don't know what it is, wouldn't you assume it might be a zone of truth and act accordingly?I'd probably assume its a charm person/monster (as appropriate) instead. Much more likely to be effective, they know if it is successful, and now you won't hide nearly as much from them.
Oh, but this is assuming that the person being interrogated has spellcraft or knowledge(arcana) or spellcasting levels.
Yea that's a decent point, the fact that they don't know what it is if they save does make it more useful
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Yea that's a decent point, the fact that they don't know what it is if they save does make it more usefulHrmm, if your intelligent, about to be interrogated and you save vs a spell and don't know what it is, wouldn't you assume it might be a zone of truth and act accordingly?I'd probably assume its a charm person/monster (as appropriate) instead. Much more likely to be effective, they know if it is successful, and now you won't hide nearly as much from them.
Oh, but this is assuming that the person being interrogated has spellcraft or knowledge(arcana) or spellcasting levels.
Agreed. Should they tell the truth (ZoT)? Should the be very friendly (charm)? Should they let something slip (suggestion)? Should they think bland thoughts (detect thoughts)?
Also, ZoT isn't the best interrogation spell, since it means you can't lie in your questions, unless you also make your save.