Bard / Paladin

[Max Mahem]

So I've decided to play a Bard/Paladin of Shelyn in our Carrion Crow campaign, focusing on Archery as my combat style. The rest of the 3 person party consist of a Dwarven Cleric of Torag and a Life Oracle of Desna. As you can see we're fairly heavily anti-evil/undead focused (which seems appropriate for this campaign).

Any advice/comments on this build? I know it's not the most optimal, but I thought that a Paladin of Shelyn (goddess of art and beauty) multiclassing into Bard was pretty flavorful. And one level of Bard doesn't really cost me much. 1 BAB, a few hitpoints, delay of my paladin progression. In exchange I get inspire courage, skill points, class skills, and some minor magic. Given my dex heavy build I am likely to be in light armor anyways, so spell failure isn't as big an issue.

So far one level of bard seemed doable, the boost from inspire courage being good enough to counter the things I lost. But I'm questionable on multiple levels. A 2nd level would get me versatile performance (which is great) but it seems to drop off on further levels. I would like to keep a good blend for flavor reasons, but I'm finding it hard to justify past level 2. I'm also looking favorably on the arcane dualist archtype for bard, which would be mechanically advantageous, but the flavor doesn't seem to fit. Thoughts?

Also does anyone know of any PrC (3.5 3rd party or otherwise) for a Bard Paladin build?

Anyways you can see my current build here.

[Crimson Jester]

Nothing to add, I just cant help but think of "Brave Sir Robin."

[Abraham spalding]

Heck go for at least 4 bard. Get those second level spells. It isn't like you are losing more BAB from it at that point anyways.

[Symar]

I don't see how Arcane Duelist doesn't fit.
You give up your skill bonuses in exchange for combat bonuses. And since you're only thinking a few levels anyway, you wouldn't be getting a whole lot out of the skill bonuses. And your Paladin levels already incline you towards combat.

Bardic Knowledge is only giving you a +1 until you get to Bard4, and letting you use them untrained. But untrained with only a +1+Int isn't a lot; you'd be relying on lucky rolls for any info. Kind of depends on the rest of the group and how often you use Knowledge skills. Whereas Arcane Strike lets you swap your swift action each round for +1 damage.

Versatile Performance will only help if you're putting ranks into a Perform instead of one of the associated skills. Looking at your build though, it seems you can't speak normally, so using your Sing or Wind for a Bluff or Diplomacy may not be helping you much. Depends on you and your DM, maybe your DM will let you play your flute for Diplomacy checks. Otherwise, it seems somewhat worthless on your specific character.

I'm playing the opposite of you; a Bard with a dip into Paladin, melee focus, also a follower of Shelyn. Just started, though, and still level 1. I wanted to go Arcane Duelist but my DM convinced me to go with the basic Bard so we had at least some knowledge skill bonuses; we have no Wizard and nobody else is playing someone that'd be likely to have many Knowledge skill ranks. (I think the Ranger has Local and Nature, and the Cleric has Religion.) It'll work out either way though.

There's really no PrC that will work with this (people always wind up thinking Purple Dragon Knight, but that seems intended for non-bards to gain some bardic songs; if your DM is willing to let it stack it might work, but RAW it doesn't, and doesn't add a whole lot of abilities. I'd personally rather take more Bard or more Paladin.) What you will want, if 3.5 material is allowed, is the Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer. It stacks your Bard and Paladin levels for determining your Smite Evil strength and Bardic Performance usage amounts. May need some adjustment with the difference between Smite Evil from Pathfinder to 3.5.

[Sayer_of_Nay]

If you are open to 3.5 material, there are a few options available to you. The Devoted Performer feat, from the Complete Adventurer. It allows your bard and paladin levels to stack when determining your smite evil damage and number of bardic music uses.

Another feat is from the Forgotten Realms source book Champions of Valor, called Devoted of Milil. It allows your bard, paladin and cleric levels to stack when determining what types of bardic music you get access to. In addition, it also adds a few unique spells to your list.

Hope that helps! :)

[Max Mahem]

Thanks for the replies, you're advice is very helpful!

Going to level 4 (at least) does seem a rather good idea, as the major thing I've lost w/ my level of Bard is that point of BAB. And you're right since I've already lost that, so no reason not to go at least level 4. Especially if I can use the devoted performer feat!

Thanks for pointing out Devoted Performer feat to me. It sounds perfect! I'll bring it up with my GM, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be allowed. Seems a Pathfinder interpretation of the feat would allow your Bard and Paladin levels to stack in terms of Smite Evil damage and Rounds of Bardic music, but not for number of uses of Smite Evil or increase to Bardic music effects (like Inspire Courage/Competence). Only down side is taking this feat delays my taking my next significant Archery feat, Deadly Aim, till level 7. Which will have a major negative effect on my damage output.

As for Arcane Duelist, I've decided against it. I do not envision this character as an Arcane Duelist, she's mainly a Paladin who happens also to inspire people ala Bard, the Arcane magic is just a side benefit. To bad there is nothing I could trade spell in for, like full BAB!

And, on further consideration, I'm not sure the benefits make any sense for the level range I'm talking about. At most I'm thinking a 50/50 split of Bard/Paladin which means over the 15 or so levels this campaign will likely last, I'll only hit level 8 or so in bard, likely less. So I will miss out or only get a small taste of the best abilities, Arcane Armor, Bladethirst, and Arcane Bond. All I end up getting is one pretty good feat (Arcane Strike, though the swift action use conflicts w/ my Lay on Hands).

In exchange I give up Versatile Performer, which could possibly be killer for me. My character has a low Int, and took a custom flaw which prevents her from communicating normally, basically she can only speak in Verse/Song sort of like the Chanters from Dragon Age, which lets her communicate basic concepts, but makes conveying details difficult/impossible. Versatile Performer will let me mitigate this to an extent by letting me play my flute for some diplomacy checks, probably only for stuff like changing people's disposition, but better then nothing. It's to bad I can't mix'n match what I take from an archtype class, because the feats I give up for this are totally not worth it, but everything else would be. I'll ask my GM about it though!

--

Anyways, since I'm probably stuck with the Bard spells, any thoughts on what I should take given that my spell progression is going to be comparatively severely retarded, and that my party already has ample access to divine magic? And that my alignment/character decisions are going to prevent me from taking any spells that don't seem fitting with the concept of a paladin (charms, fear effects, other less then honorable spells are probably out).

[Symar]

If your DM will let you use your Flute for Diplomacy checks etc, then yeah, you probably do want Versatile Performance.

You could delay taking Devoted Performer. Feats are a tricky subject.
Regarding it specifically, the 3.5 feat has you count Bard levels as Paladin for Smite damage, and Paladin levels as Bard for Music uses/day. To transfer that to Pathfinder, yes, the Paladin will give rounds/day. But Smite has changed to instead of a one-shot attack to an entire battle of bonuses against a single enemy. My DM was concerned with the possible damage output (without being a full paladin) he reduced it some, with possibilities to adjust it later.

As far as spells go, you can still do Verbal components, right? All Bard spells have a Verbal part.
You'll want to pick up the buff options. If you're looking to wind up near Bard 7 or 8, that will give you 3rd level spells. Some good picks might be: Vanish (or Invisibility), Feather Step, Solid Note, Blur, Rage, Displacement, Good Hope, and Haste.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

take 2 levels of bard only, and then buy this item, which will make you effectively bard 7 (initiate bardic performance as a move)

i know it's a custom item, but it's a fine, fine custom item... (based on monk's robe)

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

Have you considered Bard/Cavalier? You could be a battle herald then.

It's still got a code, and all of the shining armor feel, but without obvious alignment issues.

[Merck]

rkraus2 wrote:

Have you considered Bard/Cavalier? You could be a battle herald then.

It's still got a code, and all of the shining armor feel, but without obvious alignment issues.

+1

Check out the Battle Herald PrC. No need to be a pally to play a LG character.

[Majuba]

I just wanted to say that I'm currently playing a halfling Bard1/Pal9 in our Council of Thieves game, and it's been a blast. *No one* can ham up being the hero better than a Bard/Paladin inspiring courage.

[Hu5tru]

rkraus2 wrote:

Have you considered Bard/Cavalier? You could be a battle herald then.

It's still got a code, and all of the shining armor feel, but without obvious alignment issues.

Have an NPC in one of my games that is Bard/Cavalier/Battle Herald, and he is pretty awesome. Not very good in a stand up fight, but with some dudes around him who can fight... in for a world of pain.

He's a general, though, with leadership in a heavy political/social campaign, which I don't believe tha Carrion Crown is...

[Max Mahem]

Yeah, it would be great if Devoted Performer increased my uses/day of Smites, but a strict reading of the 3.5 feat doesn't lend itself to that. The feats pretty nicely balanced as written, and adding that might upset it a bit. In any case I talked to my GM about it, and he is cool with the feat.

As far as spells I can do verbal components just fine (some kind of sacred chanting/song/flute music I suppose). Originally I was looking for spells without a Somatic component (working about spell failure) but on further consideration, I'll probably be in light armor most of the game anyways, so it probably wont matter. Thank's for the spell suggestions, Vanish is a good one I hadn't considered as are the other buffs.

I looked at the Caviler as opposed to the Bard, but really this character was always designed as a Paladin, whom (after playing a couple levels) I decided would make some sense to splash some Bard, rather then the other way around. If I had to do over again I might seriously look at the Cavalier/Bard, but OTOH this campaign is evil/undead heavy it seems, and so Paladin bard might still be the best choice.

I'll show the item to my GM, he's a big fan of Monks robes for his characters, so it at least has a chance!

[Purple Dragon Knight]

rkraus2 wrote:

Have you considered Bard/Cavalier? You could be a battle herald then.

It's still got a code, and all of the shining armor feel, but without obvious alignment issues.

I specifically designed this item with battle heralds in mind...

[Benboz]

I've just started playing a Paladin with a one level Bard dip. And it's nice.

If your concern about regular paladin/bard dip's lawful good alignment is purely a role play issue, it seems like most people are pretty tolerant about creative interpretation of the code of honor. Plus the Magical Knack trait adds two to your Caster level with Bard spells. The scroll use and saves are nice.

[Benboz]

And I forgot to mention that smite evil should be called boss killer.

[Hmm]

Tell me more about these battle heralds. What cavalier order would you use to build one? I've got an averakan arbiter melee bard that might be interested in this.

Hmm