Last session the cavalier insisted that he could ride a hostile wild animal (a mammoth) using the ride and handle animal skills. He has no wild empathy, nor any way to soothe nor compel the beast outside those two skills, but insisted that "people do this in real life", referring to breaking horses and whatnot.
I am pretty sure you need to do something more than that, but since it was "cinematic" and powerwise a "meh" issue, I let it happen so the player could have fun, even if it is pretty obviously not supposed to happen so easily.
Or am I in the wrong? Can you control a beast of animal intelligence merely by climbing on top of it? Do you have to grapple, maybe? (Thinking of bull-riding, as the beast was none too pleased by being forcefully mounted)
As I understand it, Bull Riding/horse taming is basically hanging on until the animal gets too tired to keep fighting. As DM I would call it a ride or handle animal check (whichever is higher) and a bonus for havign ranks in the other (DM discression). "Rider:" must make a successful check every round (or minute if you prefer) for as many rounds (or minutes) as three times the animal's constitution bonus (or simply the constitutin bonus if you use minutes).
Like you said it's basically just a coolness factor for the player, so no need to dwell on it too much. Just give the character an opportunity to either succeed or fail with flying colors. Either way it makes for good gaming flavor.
Last session the cavalier insisted that he could ride a hostile wild animal (a mammoth) using the ride and handle animal skills. He has no wild empathy, nor any way to soothe nor compel the beast outside those two skills, but insisted that "people do this in real life", referring to breaking horses and whatnot.
I am pretty sure you need to do something more than that, but since it was "cinematic" and powerwise a "meh" issue, I let it happen so the player could have fun, even if it is pretty obviously not supposed to happen so easily.
Or am I in the wrong? Can you control a beast of animal intelligence merely by climbing on top of it? Do you have to grapple, maybe? (Thinking of bull-riding, as the beast was none too pleased by being forcefully mounted)
Could he get on, stay on, and maybe give it some general type of direction to move in (such as by digging in spurs or otherwise doing something the animal will want to move away from)? Yes. Could he control it enough to move tactically, get it to slow down, or do anything else? No. I would say he can make a ride check as a full round action to stay on, and if he beats the DC by 5 or more, he gets to dictate the general direction the animal will move in if it chooses to move. The animal then moves a random amount of distance up to double it's maximum speed, in the general direction (i.e. a cone) the rider specified.
There's no RAW for this, so it's all GM decision.
Since the creature is hostile and untrained (Ride checks tend to assume the creature is trained to be ridden, and the majority of Handle Animal, with the one exception I will discuss below, involves either activating trained tricks or training a domesticated creature), I would rule that actually mounting the creature would require a grapple check. You're not riding it at that point, you're wrangling it--grabbing onto a creature that doesn't want to be grabbed nor carry anyone.
If the cavalier successfully grappled the creature, he could then attempt to properly mount it. This would be a ride check. I would call it similar to a fast-mount attempt, which is DC 20, and the cavalier would be at a total penalty of -10 to achieve it (-5 to ride a creature ill suited to be a mount, and -5 because the mount is not saddled; see the Ride skill). He may have to make additional ride checks to stay astride if the mammoth tries to shake the rider off.
Trying to train it to accept him as a rider in the long term would require, for lack of a better mechanic, the "push an animal" attempt described under Handle Animal. This is DC 25. I would say the first push attempt would be to make the creature non-hostile, which might even be a harder DC because the creature is hostile at first--it's hard train something that wants you dead.
I think the cavalier is well within his rights to try, but mounting a mammoth and riding it should not be an easy task. Absolutely COOL, yes, but not easy.
I don't think you were right or wrong--you made your call and it was in the reason of fun, which is always a good reason.
he is well within his rights to try. but horses don't actuallly get broken that way. the best riders I'n the world get lowered onto an animal I'n a controlled setting I'n which they have somethibg to hold onfo and last ..... 30 seconds?
if there is a penalty for bareback riding it should be applied. I think he also gets his cap because it isntbhis cavalier mount. it should be do able but hard and if it works he'll likely feel awesome.
but will likely get bucked then trampled.
Thanks for the feedback. I will be considering this and employing a mesh of suggestions posted here as houserules for this.
The reason I ask is to make a call that will stay in power. I don't want to let something I allowed for mostly fun in an extremely easy (LV14 optimized characters vs CR9 right-from-the-bestiary creatures) be subject to what would almost count as abuse in another instance.
By requiring grapple checks to hang on and make the ride check a nightmare, I won't be seeing this done with creatures of a CR past their level in other campaigns.
But at the same time, allow fun stuff when they are in little to no danger.
3 weeks to break in a train the mammoth to be used as a riding animal.. at the very minimum if domesticated. It wild, i would at least double that to six weeks.
You can "Push" a animal to do a trick it does not know. Would say DC 25 for domesticated or DC 25 + HD of animal if wild.
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So i would allow it. Two check per round. One to get the animal to do what you want (handle animal check), and one for riding (riding check for staying on the mount).
Animal Check would be DC 25 + HD of mount
Ride check: Normal check with following penalties.
* = ill suited mount = -5 penalty
* = bareback = -5 penalty.
Also, unlike a domesticated mount, i would require a Ride check for = Saddle, mount, ride and dismounting. When trying to ride a Wild Animal.
Handle Animal has rules for tricks and trained animals. If you try and get an animal that does not have the proper training then you must "push" the animal. Ride could be used to get on the mount and to help stay on the mount during the "breaking process".
Aside from the above items you could add situational modifiers due to improper equipment. (No saddle -4 to ride. No bit, bridle, harness, etc -4 to handle animal. -2 per hostile step from Friendly to both ride and handle animal.) I would also allow a DM bonus or penalty based upon the situation and how the player RP's and if the DM wants to allow this creature as a pet at all. (Some DM's just are not going to allow a player who is not a druid/ranger/etc to have a T-Rex as a mount... ever.)
I would say each check for handle animal would allow you to move the target creature one step closer to Neutral Attitude. Each ride check lets you stay on the mount. If you are thrown then the animal "resets" back to where it started. Once you get the mount to the Neutral position you can then push it each round to continue riding the animal and work on your training if you are in combat or something similar.
At this point, if you are out of combat, then you need to then follow the normal "train a wild animal rules" from Handle Animal. Keep doing this for a few days or weeks and you will end up with a new trained critter.
I am pretty sure you need to do something more than that, but since it was "cinematic" and powerwise a "meh" issue, I let it happen so the player could have fun, even if it is pretty obviously not supposed to happen so easily.
First off kudos for being the kind of GM, that doesn't just say no. Too many fun cinematic momements like this are ruined by GM's that say, "It's not in the book, you can't do it."
A bunch of things come to mind for me as well. I thought of Grapple using Ride check vs CMD. Allow the mammoth to buck off the cavilier with Combat Manuever check vs Ride +10. CMD uses HD, STR, and DEX which I would think would simulate well how a big, strong critter would try and toss a rider. Maybe use nonleathal damage as a way to represent how long it takes to 'break' the animal.
I see under diplomacy that Hostile vs Indifferent mean a -10 modifier so you could just do ride checks with -10 circumstance modifier, but that doesn't make big, strong critters harder to ride. Same thing if you apply handle animal.
In the end you want to make sure the number is something do-able but not too easy.
Or am I in the wrong? Can you control a beast of animal intelligence merely by climbing on top of it?
Breaking a horse (or training any animal) is a much about winning its trust as it just bossing it around. However, I suppose if someone was crazy enough, they could just jump on the back of about any animal and 'try' to control it by yanking its head around, kicking it or whatever.
Eventually, either the cavilier will break the mammoth or vice versa.
I think of Handle Animal and Wild Empathy as Diplomacy for animals. Diplomacy has two functions:
1. To improve someone's attitude. This is handled by Wild Empathy. If you succeed, the animals attitude improves
2. To make a request of someone. This is handled by Handle Animal. If you succeed, the animal does what you want.
Just as you can't make a request of a hostile creature, you can't push a hostile animal. The rear function of handle animal, takes time and a controlled environment. Trying to calm down a wild horse takes longer than a single round, or even 10 rounds.
In a combat situation, you could "ride" the animal by trying to hold on to it's back (a combat maneuver), but you would have little to no control over where it's going. Certainly no more control than a rodeo cowboy has. You could also try to drag it to where you want it to go (also a combat maneuver).
I suppose you could fight the horse until it wore itself out, then try to push it when it was out of fight and its attitude changed to indifferent, but then it would be exhausted and not much use in combat.
If this player wants to ride and control a hostile mount in a meaningful way in combat without Wild Empathy, I wouldn't let him do it anymore than I would let someone pick a lock without Disable Device. You have to find some other way past the door.
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Orcs of Golarion has a trait that plays into this, but it's specifically about cowing an animal into submission for a short amount of time, with the specific caveat that if the rider is ever thrown off or dismounts, the animal will immediately turn on him.
I can't remember the exact mechanics, but they may be reflavorable to something less abusive and more "Imma ride the tiger!"
Orcs of Golarion has a trait that plays into this, but it's specifically about cowing an animal into submission for a short amount of time, with the specific caveat that if the rider is ever thrown off or dismounts, the animal will immediately turn on him.
I can't remember the exact mechanics, but they may be reflavorable to something less abusive and more "Imma ride the tiger!"
Most of the "beast riding" of this trait is pure fluff. Mechanically, all it does is give an all-purpose bonus to ride checks and stipulate that the mount will attack you if you're ever forcibly dismounted.
I am pretty sure you need to do something more than that, but since it was "cinematic" and powerwise a "meh" issue, I let it happen so the player could have fun, even if it is pretty obviously not supposed to happen so easily.First off kudos for being the kind of GM, that doesn't just say no. Too many fun cinematic momements like this are ruined by GM's that say, "It's not in the book, you can't do it."
A bunch of things come to mind for me as well. I thought of Grapple using Ride check vs CMD. Allow the mammoth to buck off the cavilier with Combat Manuever check vs Ride +10. CMD uses HD, STR, and DEX which I would think would simulate well how a big, strong critter would try and toss a rider. Maybe use nonleathal damage as a way to represent how long it takes to 'break' the animal.
I see under diplomacy that Hostile vs Indifferent mean a -10 modifier so you could just do ride checks with -10 circumstance modifier, but that doesn't make big, strong critters harder to ride. Same thing if you apply handle animal.
In the end you want to make sure the number is something do-able but not too easy.
This I like. This makes it harder to ride a huge and powerful beast, and evens out the difference I had in mind. This allows players to ride beasts that are far less powerful than themselves, and fail horribly if say a lv5 character tries to ride an advanced T-Rex instead of fleeing like you should. While a character that has 5 levels on the critter's CR can do stuff like this.
And then there is a reward for maxing the ride skill, and even taking skill focus. Riding bareback on wild beasts is a feat of legends, and not something every schmuck should be able to do just because he is a PC.