I've recently started up a Kingmaker campaign with my group, and have so far been musing over whether to include the Hero Point system from the APG or not. I know there's been older threads on this, but it's been a while and I'm looking for some more recent opinions on this, perhaps even from someone who've used them in Kingmaker?
As an additional resource for the players, it adds some extra fun for them I reckon. Has anyone been experimenting with the frequency of the points? I've been toying with the thought of only letting the have them if they do something cool or roleplay well, as an additional reward. Or does once per level in addition to that give a bit of further fairness to the players who might not be the star roleplayers?
Additionally, I'm a little concerned about their effects. Gaining an extra standard or move actions brings them very close to 4th editions Action Points, but they do more yet! Not as frequent as the APs, but I dare argue that being able to pull off two spells, or a move action + full attack is far more powerful in Pathfinder than it is in 4th edition D&D. So I'm considering striking that all-together. Thoughts on this?
And the acting out of turn, how does that work exactly? Say you do your turn, go a few other characters/monsters down, and then you decide to act out of turn. Does this mean you pretty much skip forward in the line, getting your turn faster?
Then again, you only get to do a move or standard action, and have to wait even longer before you get a full round again. But would this be handled as an interruption to the enemies action, or just you choosing to go before / after an enemies turn?
The reroll and bonus to rolls are a-okay by me, but they seem a bit redundant. Why allow a reroll if you can already get +4 after a check, and +8 before that? I like the flat-out bonus to the roll, it challenges the players to consider whether its worth the risk, to try and play safe to get the +8 bonus or take the risk and then realize they need a bit more, adding the +4. To me, the reroll takes away a little of that, where players might just take the risk and if they roll bad, they'll rather take the reroll than the +4.
I'm a bit hesitant on the recalling used spells. I still got nightmares of the silly things casters did in D&D, and while Pathfinder certainly seems to have improved it... I see little reason to add further to their power. This part is mostly useless for classes that are not spellcasters.
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on Hero Points, and my thoughts on them.
I have been using Hero Points for our Legacy of Fire game. They work very well. I have a few players that burn them for as little as a +8 to a d20 roll within 15 minutes of getting them. I have other players that save them up and make sure they always have 2 available to avoid death.
They get the one Hero point when they go up a level. I also award them an additional point at key points in the adventure.
For example. In the first book of Legacy of fire that took them from level 1 to level 5... I awarded a bonus point to each party member at three points in the Book One of the AP. When they took the Monastery, when they took the Battle Market in town, and when they cleared out the Big Bad that gained them full control of the town.
As far as bonus points that go to a single person, that is VERY rare and you know it when it happens. I have given out exactly two points over eight levels. The group as a whole usually cheers when something worthy of a bonus point comes into play and I keep it special.
So you see I keep it really rare. They get on average 4 Hero points every 3 levels. Not enough to break the game, but enough for them to have fun with it... or over a couple levels avoid death once.
Hero points seem very similar to action points in 4e. When I first started playing 4e I hated action points. I still hate them thematically but I love them as a player. They make no mechanical sense and do a great deal to destroy my sense of verisimilitude, but 4e does a good job of destroying my sense of verisimilitude in a number of other ways, so I've just decided to accept and enjoy them.
But I haven't made up my mind if I want to introduce them to Pathfinder. I mean they are fun, and fun is supposed to be what the game is all about, so I am leaning towards it, but at the same time, they really detract from any sense of continuity and reality in the game world. Suddenly you can take two standard actions? Really? Wow. What changed in the universe's laws of physics to allow that?
@Brassbaboon
I can accept them thematically, actually. That last bit of hero's resolve, that extra surge of adrenaline/magical power, the spark of genius, or a dramatic intervention, a critically failed roll suddenly slipping into a success. The Pathfinder HPs let you do that in more ways than 4th editions AP though, where they are only tools in combat. In Pathfinder, we can use them to solve skill checks, barely manage to grab onto the ledge as we make a heroic leap across a chasm... and so on.
I'll probably end up using them, but I'm unsure which part of them I want. I know I won't be including the extra standard/move action, because that's not the kind of way I want them to be used(also concerned about balance issues). Might drop recall spells as well, due to aforementioned reasons.
I used to play Dark Heresy a lot, where Fate Points was given per session, and let you do rerolls, get extra wound points, recover from a stun. The reroll helped my players in many ways, so merely that part of them is incredibly useful and giving to the players I think.
@Brassbaboon
I can accept them thematically, actually. That last bit of hero's resolve, that extra surge of power, the spark of genius, a last defiant breath. The Pathfinder HPs let you do that in more ways than 4th editions AP though, where they are only tools in combat. In Pathfinder, we can use them to solve skill checks, barely manage to grab onto the ledge as we make a heroic leap across a chasm... and so on.
I'll probably end up using them, but I'm unsure which part of them I want. I know I won't be including the extra standard/move action, because that's not the kind of way I want to use them. Might drop recall spells as well, due to aforementioned reasons.
See, I might buy this if this same concept had not already sold the following ideas:
1. PCs are heroic, special people and thus have higher attributes than the common, lowly NPC.
2. PCs are heroic, special people who have access to powerful feats and abilities to do extraordinary things.
3. PCs are heroic, special people who are among the rare individuals in the world who can learn to use powerful magic and spells.
4. PCs are heroic, special people who are given rare opportunities to perform rare and heroic acts that other people don't get the chance to do.
5. PCs are heroic, special people who not only start with higher attributes, but who add levels to their abilities through adventuring, and can boost even their base attributes to inhuman levels.
Etc. etc... etc...
I mean how far are we going to push this concept of "heroic, special people?"
At least 4e has the intellectual honesty to call it "cinematic exposition" and makes it clear it is an attempt to make the game look more like crazy Hollywood movies where Kung Fu experts literally fly through the air to perform their superhuman feats.
Actually, 4th edition pretty much calls it "Heroic actions for heroic cool people".
Only your 1st point is exclusively limited to the players, and that depends on what kind of DM you have. He might give every NPC the same stat-spread he gives the PCs.
Spells, feats, abilities, all of these NPCs, both heroes, villains or the damn Innkeeper can learn. The PCs are a bit more special than the Average Joe and again depending on the DM you have, might not be very special or heroic at all.
I think the idea of the hero points is to thematically solidify that the characters are even more skilled/talented/lucky than most other NPCs, but of course also to give a mechanically interesting system to use and a nice way to create both dramatic tension and cinematic flair. And even then, you can give important NPCs and even monsters Hero Points as well.
I use Hero Points in my homebrew game and I haven't run into any problems yet at all, even with the extra actions. We are going onto our 5th session in the campaign (and probably 10th session with hero points) and quite enjoy them. They make things feel more "heroic" and reduce the chances someone gets killed by something lame like a random crit from a mook.
Heh, I don't think I'm ever going to accept them thematically. But right now I am leaning towards introducing them to my Pathfinder campaign, simply because they are fun.
Sometimes fun trumps rationality....
One other item I would like to point out is the ability to reroll a dice or to avoid death with two points. I stress to my players that Hero Points are one of the key ways they can make sure their character does not die because the dice turned on them. This allows me as a DM to not have to fudge things or fear too much about letting loose the big guns of evil. I provide the players with a way to reroll dice a little when it counts... or to even avoid death outright. If they choose to spend their Hero Points for random things that is their choice. But then I do not have to feel too bad if they die and have spent all their "insurance".
Some players do not mind if their characters dies. (I am in this camp. A dead PC can be raised... or you can use it as a chance to try out a new concept with a new character.) Others do NOT like having a PC die after they have invested time and soul into the character. Hero Points allow them more control over their fate and fickle dice.
I'm keeping my hero points rule from my old game/from deadlands. If a player acts very in-character, and roleplays well (especially if doing so is actually a detriment to themself/the party but is what their character would do) or they do something particularly impressive or clever to solve something that I did not think of, they get a hero point.
This makes them very rare, and you can only have one at a time. My hero points let you do 1 of 2 things with them.
1) Reroll any roll once, before the result is announced.
or
2) Add 1d6 to any roll, before the result is announced.