Couple sunder questions


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Can sunders replace all attacks on a full attack? Say a 12th fighter has 3 attacks normally, can he use 3 sunders at normal/-5/-10?

Can you crit on a sunder attempt?


The jury seems to be out on that one.

I, personally, am convinced that the text (aided by developer clarification of Vital Strike that could also be applied to Sunder) says that it is an Attack action (standard action), though I also feel that it's a bit silly.

All the same, the most recent discussion that I am aware of can be found here, and it doesn't end with everybody convinced of one side or another.

To continue the argument here would be redundant, so if anybody reading this is going to have two cents to put in, consider putting it in there.


Shar Tahl wrote:
Can you crit on a sunder attempt?

Troubleshooter is entirely correct about the disagreement on the first point (I'm in the other camp, that says you can, although I agree that it's badly worded). However, on your second question, the answer is that any attack that requires a d20 can crit, but sunder is a combat maneuver and not expressly an attack. Since it's a maneuver that does damage, I'd allow it to crit, but I don't think there's any clear RAW one way or the other.


I would allow it to trigger critical hit-based effects like Flaming Burst, but since the target is an Object, the weapon itself wouldn't deal multiplied damage.


maneuvers ARE expressly attacks, or rather attack rolls...
Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

now technically, crits are defined under the `attack action`, but common sense has it that crits apply to all attack rolls, which maneuvers count as. they simply might have a slightly different attack bonus, and target a different DC, just like touch attacks target touch AC but can still Crit.

if an attack doesn`t do damage, then bonus crit damage wouldn`t apply (zero x2 or x3 is still zero), but if an attack does do damage, then crit damage does happen. maintaining a grapple to do damage can crit, and would do crit damage based on uas/natural attack, sundering can crit and also benefits from vital strike which is like critting minus damage bonuses.


"Immunities: Objects are immune to subdual damage and to critical hits . . . ." (Page 174)

On the other hand, Vital Strike is more than just a faux-critical hit attack. Vital Strike is not a critical hit, nor is it Precision damage. That is why you can benefit from Vital Strike when attacking Oozes and Objects, two targets normally immune to critical hits.

And as before, powers such as Flaming Burst would still activate when attacking critical-immune targets.

Edit: Or maybe not? Under Magic Weapons and Critical Hits on page 468, it specifies "This special effect also functions against creatures not normally subject to critical hits." So technically, it doesn't expressly allow for activating against Objects unless there's something I'm missing.


Right, Vital Strike is not a Crit, and Objects don´t have special immunity to it AFAIK (???).
Also, Greater Sunder lets you apply damage (incl. Crit damage) to the wearer/wielder if you exceed the object HP.

In any game I`m in, I would interpret the Critical Effect wording allowing vs. Crit Immune creatures to also apply to Immune TARGETS at large, though you can certainly claim that`s not RAW (and thus could be Errata`d if that`s not the RAI).


Quandary wrote:

maneuvers ARE expressly attacks, or rather attack rolls...

Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.

now technically, crits are defined under the `attack action`, but common sense has it that crits apply to all attack rolls, which maneuvers count as. they simply might have a slightly different attack bonus, and target a different DC, just like touch attacks target touch AC but can still Crit.

if an attack doesn`t do damage, then bonus crit damage wouldn`t apply (zero x2 or x3 is still zero), but if an attack does do damage, then crit damage does happen. maintaining a grapple to do damage can crit, and would do crit damage based on uas/natural attack, sundering can crit and also benefits from vital strike which is like critting minus damage bonuses.

Does that mean that a natural 20 on a trip attack means the target is automatically tripped? A natural 20 on a disarm roll means you're automatically disarmed, even if you have your weapon in a locked gauntlet?

My first thought was that you could crit on sunder and all combat maneuvers because they were attacks, but then I ran into issues like this.

The Exchange

Quote:
Does that mean that a natural 20 on a trip attack means the target is automatically tripped? A natural 20 on a disarm roll means you're automatically disarmed, even if you have your weapon in a locked gauntlet?

Certainly. A locked gauntlet only adds +10 CMD to avoid being Disarmed, it doesn't make Disarming an impossibility.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hopefully this will help.

Official FAQ wrote:

Can I make multiple sunder attempts in one round as part of a full-attack action? The sunder text says that I can make sunder attempts in place of melee attacks in an attack action, which is not technically a full-attack action.

Yes you can. The text is a little unclear here. Instead of saying "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack", the text should read "in place of a melee attack", which would allow you to make multiple attempts in one round, or even make a sunder attempt as an attack of opportunity.

—Jason Bulmahn, 11/30/12

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Couple sunder questions All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.