Bouncing Spell and Persistent Spell = Gum and Nuts?


Rules Questions


So, these two metamagic feats have been leading to some serious confusion over how they interact with eachother. Does the spell Bounce if they fail their initial save, or only if they fail both. Say I throw a Persistent, Bouncing Slay living at Dudeface. Will it only Bounce on the 1st save? Only on the 2nd? Or will it Bounce on both? And when it does Bounce, will it still be Persistent (ie., will Dudeface's buddy Someguy have to save twice, or just once?).

Liberty's Edge

1: Cast Bouncing, Persistent spell at BaddieA
2: BaddieA beats his first save
3: BaddieB beats his second save
4: Spell bounces to BaddieB
5: BaddieB has two saves to make

^ At least that's how I run it. Not sure of exact RAW, but I believe this is how it works.


rules wrote:
Whenever a bouncing spell targeting a single creature has no effect on its intended target (whether due to spell resistance or a successful saving throw) you may, as a swift action, redirect it to target another eligible creature within range. The redirected spell behaves in all ways as if its new target were the original target for the spell. Spells that affect a target in any way (including a lesser effect from a successful saving throw) may not be redirected in this manner.

So if it is persistent too and it has an effect because they failed the second save then it doesn't bounce since bouncing only happens when the spell has no effect at all.


I didn't notice that bouncing spell was a swift action before. So a quickened bouncing spell is useless unless it's also persistent (because you can then use the next turn's swift action to bounce it).

This also brings up the question of whether the spell can bounce again. Normally, it wouldn't matter, because you can only bounce it once because you only have one swift action. But if it's persistent, you could theoretically keep it bouncing around turn after turn until someone fails a save. This is based on the "The redirected spell behaves in all ways as if its new target were the original target for the spell" line:

Round 1: Cast at X, X saves.
Round 2: X saves again, swift action to swap it to Y, Y saves. Another spell is cast.
Round 3: Y saves again, swift action to swap it back to X, X saves. Another spell is cast.
Round 4: X fails and is hit by the first spell. Another persistant bouncing spell is cast...


Um... no.

rules wrote:


Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.

You don't know if the first creature is affected until it fails both save throws. As such the spell can't bounce since it doesn't know if the first was affected or not until both save throws are passed.

It's:

Save, Save, Bounce, Save, Save

All in the same round.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Um... no.

rules wrote:


Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.

You don't know if the first creature is affected until it fails both save throws. As such the spell can't bounce since it doesn't know if the first was affected or not until both save throws are passed.

It's:

Save, Save, Bounce, Save, Save

All in the same round.

Thanks very much. For some reason I had it in my head that PErsistent Spell created another copy of the spell.


Astin Dextor wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Um... no.

rules wrote:


Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.

You don't know if the first creature is affected until it fails both save throws. As such the spell can't bounce since it doesn't know if the first was affected or not until both save throws are passed.

It's:

Save, Save, Bounce, Save, Save

All in the same round.

Thanks very much. For some reason I had it in my head that PErsistent Spell created another copy of the spell.

And I was remembering persistent as making you make the second save one round later. Oops. Thanks for catching it.

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