Sketching out a barbarian / paladin build

[Douglas Muir 406]

NPC who started as a barbarian, converted to law and civilization later in life, and eventually became a paladin. The inspiration is Ogier the Dane, aka Holger Dansk, who was one of the original "paladins" of Charlemagne. (In the chronicles, Holger/Ogier started as a Viking raider who killed at least one of Charlemagne's best knights, or in some versions his son. But he gets civilized and Christianized and ends up being one of the king's greatest servants.)

It's inspiration rather than cut-and-paste... but anyway, "Holger" is a Barb 4 / Pal 4 who patrols the harbor of a major port city IMC. He's a jovial, easygoing sort who gets along pretty well with most folk, and most sailors and travellers just think he's a representative of Customs or the Watch or something. In fact Holger has two jobs. One is to keep order in the harbor and, if necessary, protect the innocent there. The other is to keep watch for contraband and/or evil creatures trying to enter the city.

IMC Paladins aren't very common, but it's not unusual for people to multiclass into paladinhood -- it's a vocation or call that is often heard late in life. Barbarian / paladin is still pretty unusual, though.

Holger belongs to an order that defends this particular city against evil. They assign individual members to places where threats might arise. So, they've got a guy with high Diplomacy and intrigue skills hanging out in the salons of the aristocracy, watching for plots and poisons; another guy with lots of fighter skills backstopping the guards on the walls; a guy with stealth and dungeoneering skills who regularly hits the sewers to deal with wererats and derro and such; and Holger, patrolling the port.

-- Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Fleet, Extra Rage, Improved Unarmed Strike. The first two are pretty standard for a barbarian. Fleet = 45' movement, which means he can run down pretty much anyone who's not mounted. Extra Rage because he's not taking any more barbarian levels. IUS because sometimes he needs to settle disputes without using his greatsword.

-- Rage powers: Raging Swim, Scent. Yes, finally a use for Raging Swim. If you're more or less the cop on the beat in a magic city's busy harbor, you may end up in the water sometimes. Scent is for picking up unusual smells -- fiends and aberrations are much easier to detect when you can sniff them out, and then of course there's the odd bit of contraband. Only works when he's raging, but he can turn that on for a round or two if he suspects something.

-- Skills: max Perception and Swim. (Yes, there are plenty of magic items an 8th level character could take to help with swimming. Holger is still a barbarian at heart. Also, he likes swimming.) Some ranks in Sense Motive, Handle Animal, Ride and a couple of Knowledges. A couple in Profession (Sailor) -- I think he was a Viking raider type before switching, and it's still useful to him.

-- Gear: greatsword and chain shirt, presumably both masterwork and magic by now.

So I've got him sketched out. Still, I'd welcome thoughts and comments. Anyone?

Doug M.

[flamethrower49]

The first thing I see is this:

The reason you don't see a lot of builds like this is that Barbarian and Paladin are at odds, alignment-wise. Paladins are supposed to be lawful good. Barbarians cannot be lawful, or they can no longer rage. It is this that often puts a stop to awesome combinations like this.

But.

You are the DM. This is your game. If you want to handwave an alignment issue like that, it's your business. Just make sure your players can do the same, if they so choose. You can do the same or more if you play Barbarian/Fighter, so don't think the character is crushed completely if you like alignment rules. Fighters can be noble, too.

As for the build, it's great for an NPC. May I ask what role you plan for him? Ally? Nemesis? Will he be accompanying the PCs on their quest, hopefully in a watery environment?

[thomas nelson]

For the flavor you may want to go Barbarian (Mounted Fury)/Cavalier.

[Tem]

There's a Barbarian 3/Paladin 1 NPC in the Kingmaker AP and a player will be taking it over as his PC starting soon. His backstory involves being on the road to paladinhood when he snaps due to some pretty traumatic events and becomes a barbarian. When you meet him, he doesn't have any of his paladin abilities.

In our game, he was offered redemption and has now resumed his paladin mantle and will be statted up as a Paladin 5/Barbarian 3 PC. Rather than saying the PC cannot rage at all, I've ruled that he can rage but such a loss of control is against his code of conduct and he'd lose his paladin abilities as a result. It'll be interesting to see if the PC will ever opt to use it.

[Douglas Muir 406]

flamethrower49 wrote:

Barbarians cannot be lawful, or they can no longer rage. It is this that often puts a stop to awesome combinations like this.

But.

You are the DM. This is your game. If you want to handwave an alignment issue like that, it's your business. Just make sure your players can do the same, if they so choose.

Yah, the alignment thing... I don't think any of my players will ever try to play a lawful barbarian. Also, while it's an interesting combination, I don't think it's overpowered at all. Yes, Rage + Smite Evil is pretty awesome. But overall, I think this guy is clearly inferior to either a Barb 8 or Pal 8.

That said, I probably should add an in-game explanation. The lawful gods approve of this guy, and allow him to keep his rage ability? Something like that. Then maybe add some boundary conditions... like, for every round that he rages, he loses his paladin abilities for ten minutes afterward. Inherent incompatibility of the two classes, or some such. So he wouldn't rage without some good reason.

Doug M.

[Quandary]

Ditch Raging Swim... I mean, sure, make him a good swimmer but he doesn`t need Raging Swim to do that.
8 ranks + 3 class skill bonus + 7 str mod (16 base STR, +2 level up, +2 magical, +4 rage = 24 STR) = +18.
...I didn´t include any racial bonus, which would be +1 higher modifier, for +19, i.e. autopass for DC 20.
Guess what the highest Swim DC is? 20. Adding a +8 bonus is completely wasted here...

Armor Check Penalty would apply, but it`s not doubled in PRPG,
and a Mithril Chain Shirt, if not Mithril Chainmail (why not?) is just not that big of a penalty...
although it may make the MAX DC20 no longer COMPLETELY auto-pass for a +2 STR race.

If you want to make an even better Swimmer (to counter any ACP so he is 100% auto-pass),
give him a trait adding another +1, or give him Skill Focus or Athletic (+2 Climb and Swim).
Climbing, or Jumping (Acrobatics) seems like something useful in what you`ve described as his area of work.
Grabbing Mithril Armor is easily affordable at his level, and is all the effective bonus he needs to Swim amazingly.

He has plenty enough Feats at this level, especially if he his Human, to pick up all the low-hanging fruit to be effective in combat and even shore up some weaknesses, while also grabbing Athletic or another such Feat... Rage Powers can really give him much more unique/effective combat abilities, that I don´t see the need to give up a Rage Power this way when a Feat could do the job... And I doubt you even need the Feat, a Trait should more than do, and even that is un-necessary unless you insist on complete 100% autopass.

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I would consider dropping IUS, it`s just very underwhelming... I only take it if I want to Grapple, and usually via Monk.

If you give him Spiked Gauntlets he can attack normally without provoking, and you can give him Merciful Amulet of Mighty Fists if you want the non-Lethal option... Actually, enchant ONE Spiked Gauntlet as Merciful and then he has both options.

As for Rage Powers, Knockback seems very useful if he`s around ships or docks alot...

You could grab a 3rd Rage Power with extra Rage Power (Strength Surge to combo w/ Knockback?, besides also filling in for Raging Swim ironically enough), or any other Feat you want too. I like Blind-Fight, and Iron Will always seems to end up being useful.

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As mentioned, Rage doesn`t work if you`re Lawful per RAW, but I don`t see a big problem allowing it (`houseruling`), Rage itself doesn`t even say it`s particularly Chaotic , just that you `call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity` which impedes your concentration and patience. Lawful people can be impatient and have low concentration capacity.