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I wanted to share something that I came up with during Friday's KM game we had. I had to come up with an on the fly ruling, and as I thought about it further afterwards, I really thought well of it, and liked how it all turned out - and can be used as a template for future scenarios.
The back story as to why this came up for those interested...
One of the various quests that I added to the campaign involved a dwarven prince with information and title holdings to ancestral land that dwarves once inhabited in the stolen lands that he wants to reclaim. He asks the PCs to locate it and liberate it of any ill creatures, in exchange for access to his mithril mines and to have an allied dwarven community that the PCs can lean on when needing assistance. I placed the location in the Stolen Lands - in the the bottom hex of the map adjacent to the Nalmarches. Using the Crown of the Kobold King Pathfinder module, I put the monastery there, and had a dwarf wanting to reclaim his ancestral home - asking the PCs to liberate it from the red-scale kobolds - who by the way were enemies to the Sootscale clan (that are allies of the PCs at the moment - though a shakey alliance). Upon completion of that module, the dwarf was able to reclaim the ancestral home, moved some of his clan in, and of course swore to be allies w/ the PC's kingdom (which had not yet incorporated any of those hills). So the dwarves will be their own barony that will be allied and protect the PCs kingdom from the south should Mivon wish to get rowdy with the PCs for instance.
As part of an alliance the PCs made w/ the dwarven leader and his clan, there's obvious trade and other things to benefit each kingdom, so I felt a permanent bonus to the PCs kingdom is in order. Much like the nixie provides. So what I came up with is an idea of a +2 bonus to one of the PC's kingdoms stats (their choice), and a bonus to the dwarves a +2 to one of their three stats. So the PCs took a +2 bonus to ECON, and dwarves took a +2 to STABILITY. This was all on the fly.
That's the mechanics. The story aspect that I described was that the dwarves are trading mined goods to the PCs (thus an increase in their economy), and in turn, the dwarves have asked for the trade of information from the PCs as to the goings on throughout the Stolen Lands. Since the PCs reach were much further and had far more connections, the dwarves could benefit from having eyes/ears in the field to update them as they stay "locked in their mines" as dwarves tend to do. So they each benefit each other in area that they each would want assistance in.
So what I take from all of this is a way to make "trade agreements" with other civilizations around the PCs. A bonus to one of the stats of their choice, and the DM can then generate a good description as to what those 'traded resources' are that provide the bonus. Furthermore, the bonus could be higher based on the size of each community. The dwarves only have one hex (at this time) and thus can't provide a lot - but lets say later they wish to expand to another hill hex - I see this as a way to increase the trade bonus to +3, etc.
Robert
I did something similar. The PCs in my group are gaining a +2 to Economy from a trade agreement they've got going with Mivon, and up-until-recently (they just started the third book) they were enjoying a +2 to Economy, +2 Stability (but at a +1 Consumption cost) thanks to a trade agreement with Varnhold.
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I did something similar. The PCs in my group are gaining a +2 to Economy from a trade agreement they've got going with Mivon, and up-until-recently (they just started the third book) they were enjoying a +2 to Economy, +2 Stability (but at a +1 Consumption cost) thanks to a trade agreement with Varnhold.
What may I ask is the nature of the trade agreement with Mivon and Varnhold?
Just curious.
I was thinking the PCs would want to trade w/ Varnhold - as they have already established a friendly alliance with the nation - and trying to bring the kingdoms closer together via marrying Maegar's daughter (an NPC addition I made to the game) to the PCs baron.
From an initial glance, it would appear lumber would be a good resource that Varnhold lacks that PCs can provide. Other than that, I am curious what you have drummed up.
As for the SootScale kobolds, they trade silver to the PCs in exchange for "firewater" (liquor). One of the PCs has the Kingmaker PC trait to be from the brevoy noble known for their famous spirits - he established a brewery in their capitol and relocated his family there; which the kobolds have come to love!
Robert
I'm looking for a similar solution for my game, but here's the logical quandry I find myself headbutting against:
My characters founded their first city at Oleg's, which puts them on the South Rostland Round, and firmly connected to Restov and all of Brevoy. (And even if your characters started elsewhere, it's still easy enough for them to connect to said road.)
Any trade bonus offered by Brevoy is going to eclipse that offered by petty Varnhold, or even Mivon. How can I give a trade bonus for these "other colonies" while still being able to address "the Brevoy question" when my PCs ask?
FWIW, in my campaign, the "political turbulence" that causes Brevoy to sever ties with the PC's Kingdom hasn't happened yet, and won't for some time, otherwise I'd use that as an excuse and just say that the PC's kingdom is boycotted.
I did something similar. The PCs in my group are gaining a +2 to Economy from a trade agreement they've got going with Mivon, and up-until-recently (they just started the third book) they were enjoying a +2 to Economy, +2 Stability (but at a +1 Consumption cost) thanks to a trade agreement with Varnhold.What may I ask is the nature of the trade agreement with Mivon and Varnhold?
Just curious.
The agreement with Mivon is based off of river trade north along the Little Sellen (you'll note on the River Nations map that the little Sellen leads straight to Mivon), since the East Sellen is currently blockaded by the boggards, the Mivoni traders want to use the PC's kingdom as an entryway into Brevoy.
IMC, Varnhold developed a couple mines, and my PC's kingdom was very farm-based (they farmed every hex they could), so the trade agreement with Varnhold was for metals from Varnhold for grain from Chymal (their kingdom). Edit:They also had something of a mutual border defense agreement, where they agreed to guard each others' borders from trouble.
I was thinking the PCs would want to trade w/ Varnhold - as they have already established a friendly alliance with the nation - and trying to bring the kingdoms closer together via marrying Maegar's daughter (an NPC addition I made to the game) to the PCs baron.
Well, great minds. I, too, developed a daughter for Baron Varn and introduced her as a potential love interest for the baron. The two married this last session, just prior to the events of The Varnhold Vanishing. (Actually, about six months prior in game time, but we did a lot of kingdom building between RRR and VV). She had been invited by the group to stay and study magic with the magister at their newly established magic school in Candlemere, and the baron had a two year long courtship with her leading to an eventual proposal.
From an initial glance, it would appear lumber would be a good resource that Varnhold lacks that PCs can provide. Other than that, I am curious what you have drummed up.
Well, if you map out the territories that Varnhold has annexed, they actually have very little farmland. (Honestly, the Barony of Varn is pretty unsustainable according to the Kingmaker rules...) Hence the food-for-ore trade.
As for the SootScale kobolds, they trade silver to the PCs in exchange for "firewater" (liquor). One of the PCs has the Kingmaker PC trait to be from the brevoy noble known for their famous spirits - he established a brewery in their capitol and relocated his family there; which the kobolds have come to love!
The Sootscale Kobolds are loyal citizens of Chymal IMC, happily working the silver and gold mines. I believe they now comprise something like 2% of the kingdom's 10,000 or so denizens.
Any trade bonus offered by Brevoy is going to eclipse that offered by petty Varnhold, or even Mivon. How can I give a trade bonus for these "other colonies" whi
I'm honestly not sure what the "Brevoy question" is - but the fact is that Brevoy isn't going to be paying for more than it's getting. So if your kingdom can only produce so much, it's only to be getting so much - hence why the bonus looks so relatively small.
Since it's all abstracted into a basic plus to one stat, your players aren't really going to be looking too deeply at the nickel and dime situation. (IF they do, you can just shrug and say 'that's what the bonus is for.')
Using Robert's idea (where you can choose which stat to get a bonus to), you can say that an Economy boost is a pure trade agreement: goods for goods, or goods for cash. A Stability bonus is a mutual non-aggression treaty, or a mutual defense treaty, where the kingdoms agree to at least not cause trouble between each other, or even come to each other's aid if necessary. And a Loyalty bonus could be considered something like the EU's free travel agreement- you can go and move anywhere you like without hassle.
I like the idea thogh i will not do it like this.
What i do instead is giving the players regular reports of the surrounding "nations" based on the role as a leader.
e. g. the player who is the actual spymaster gets the AP rumors as reports from his spy network regularly.
My plaers established a crown court that involves all Leader PCs and NPCs to meet regularly in the court week (the one week a leader at least to give the kingdom teh role benefit). There they present there infomation the way they like to do it. So the PCs get the information but mostly interpreted by the one who ist "responsible" for the issue.
Our spymaster is the one who interprets alot.
This leads to very intense discussions about the way to rule the kingdom in a very RP way. Those discussion seldom are driven by the mechanics but more by the personality and the interest of the players.
We just ending RrR but the general has stressed that he needs an army and though they don't need one they soon will have one.
On the other hand i offered them some hippogriff hatchlings from a exotic pet trader (very high economics as kingdom stat) and they offered him that he could have a hatchery for hippogriffs if they can have the first pick on these exotic mounts. I told them to place one exotic craftsman AND stable in one city district to give the trader his workplace.
So they could have an army of hippogriff cavalry by roleplaying a leader.
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I'm looking for a similar solution for my game, but here's the logical quandry I find myself headbutting against:
My characters founded their first city at Oleg's, which puts them on the South Rostland Round, and firmly connected to Restov and all of Brevoy. (And even if your characters started elsewhere, it's still easy enough for them to connect to said road.)
Any trade bonus offered by Brevoy is going to eclipse that offered by petty Varnhold, or even Mivon. How can I give a trade bonus for these "other colonies" while still being able to address "the Brevoy question" when my PCs ask?
FWIW, in my campaign, the "political turbulence" that causes Brevoy to sever ties with the PC's Kingdom hasn't happened yet, and won't for some time, otherwise I'd use that as an excuse and just say that the PC's kingdom is boycotted.
There can still be an unease (cold war so to speak) that does not include a boycott (yet).
In other words - the governmetn know-it-alls of Rostland knew that there was a larger plan all along - though not disclosed, and has to admit that they were not in a great position to engage in trade.
Pumping a massive amount of support from Rostland would a) unsettle Issia, and b) perhaps concern other River Kingdom leaders - as it becomes more glaringly clear that the PCs kingdom are in fact meant to be some sort of annexation of Brevoy - as opposed to being considered "free river kingdom" land.
To me - this is easily explained as some sort of conflict of interest.
This would help encouraget the PCs to sever their umbilical cord from Restov and help establish political agreements with other burgeoning communities throughout the River Kingdoms.
On the other hand - if that isn't at all plausible in your campaign, you could have Restov assisting in some way - only to be cut-off when the time is appropriate as per the story, forcing the PCs to scramble to find other allies.
Robert
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Using Robert's idea (where you can choose which stat to get a bonus to), you can say that an Economy boost is a pure trade agreement: goods for goods, or goods for cash. A Stability bonus is a mutual non-aggression treaty, or a mutual defense treaty, where the kingdoms agree to at least not cause trouble between each other, or even come to each other's aid if necessary. And a Loyalty bonus could be considered something like the EU's free travel agreement- you can go and move anywhere you like without hassle.
And it doesn't have to be apples for apples. As it was done in my game, the PCs are trading for resources (ECON) for information (STABILITY) to the dwarves.
So any combo would work.
The fun part then is imagining what form does the trade come in to explain the bonuses (if that part is important to you).
And Atrus is right - Brevoy isn't going to give more than it's receiving, and they already provided the initial 50BP for the PCs to begin their settlement.
The PCs barony probably isn't capable (yet) of being in a position to offer very much at first (in comparison to Brevoy/Rostland). But as I indicated, I had made room for increasing the mutual bonus based on size increases of the involved parties.
Robert
I like the idea thogh i will not do it like this.
What i do instead is giving the players regular reports of the surrounding "nations" based on the role as a leader.
e. g. the player who is the actual spymaster gets the AP rumors as reports from his spy network regularly.
My plaers established a crown court that involves all Leader PCs and NPCs to meet regularly in the court week (the one week a leader at least to give the kingdom teh role benefit). There they present there infomation the way they like to do it. So the PCs get the information but mostly interpreted by the one who ist "responsible" for the issue.
Our spymaster is the one who interprets alot.This leads to very intense discussions about the way to rule the kingdom in a very RP way. Those discussion seldom are driven by the mechanics but more by the personality and the interest of the players.
We just ending RrR but the general has stressed that he needs an army and though they don't need one they soon will have one.
On the other hand i offered them some hippogriff hatchlings from a exotic pet trader (very high economics as kingdom stat) and they offered him that he could have a hatchery for hippogriffs if they can have the first pick on these exotic mounts. I told them to place one exotic craftsman AND stable in one city district to give the trader his workplace.
So they could have an army of hippogriff cavalry by roleplaying a leader.
That's exactly how you should do it, actually. IMC, a crew of Mivoni river traders approached the PCs to set up the trade agreement. (Their leader was one of a number of potential romantic interests I laid out for the then-Baron, a hot elf Mivoni swordlord chick who totally kicked their General's ass after he challenged her to a test duel.) The Baron then got the idea to approach Varnhold and Rostland with a similar goal and off it went on its own.
I like your exotic trader idea too. I might have to steal me some.
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I'm trying to come up with a few situations of foreign dignitaries and organizations coming to the PCs with offers and deals for negotiations. I'm looking to craft them in a variety of ways, ranging from trade agreements and military pacts with other nations to situations that pose a dilemma, like a political figure from another nation being hunted by his enemies asking for asylum, or various church organizations offering 'donations' to the kingdom in exchange for their influence being allowed to grow in their kingdom, whether it be a god/neutral deity or evil one.
I see some examples here in regards to the trade agreements side of what I want to do, and they're good. Has anyone done something similar to the other types of situations I want to create? If so, I'd love to hear from you so we could share some ideas/thoughts.
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I see some examples here in regards to the trade agreements side of what I want to do, and they're good. Has anyone done something similar to the other types of situations I want to create? If so, I'd love to hear from you so we could share some ideas/thoughts.
heres a few that I have already used:
Religious order offers a partial amount of BPs to add towards the creation of shrine/temple/cathedral of that religion - and with a (some) string(s) attached based on the portfolio of the god. For instance, IMC Abadar church has already done this (offered to pay half the BP) - a shrine meant that the PCs can never have zero taxes. The PCs later took a donation to increase the shrine to a temple, but the taxes can never be lower than normal. They have the option to allow the church to increase this to a cathedral - but they have to do this for they do not want to agree to never allow their taxes to drop below Heavy.
This can be done with other religions. Other building types as well can work - perhaps someone wants to pay some one wishes to have a luxury store built, or a waterfront. etc. Find an angle of what they would want as compensation.
Golarion based organizations can also approach the PCs kingdom to offer services, or pay to have some influence.
Varisian caravans (w/ harrower) - they want to set up a camp to offer services. Want freedom to do their craft - but provide some measure of kick-back in economy. Could create issues with valuables being misplaced however by citizens of the PCs kingdom....
Pathfinder Society - they want to explore a region and create an excavation site somewhere (perhas the Tors of Levenies, or the ancient elven keep), they offer payment for allowing them to have access to the hex (basically the hex is of no use to the PCs kingdom for that timeframe)
Aspis Consortium - same as above - offers more money - but obviously not with good intentions.
Lumber Consortium - wants to set up a lumber mill camp in a forest hex. Pays a stipend to the PCs kingdom - but hex is otherwise unavailable to the PCs for other reasons.
Outlaw Council (River Kingdoms specific) - wants information, PCs to join, looking for a bandit on the run, wants help "replacing" a current member of the government.
Galtan Red Revolutionaries - looking to use PCs kingdom as a thoroughfare for their trips into Galt from another River Kingdom (Galvan perhaps) to continue their ongoing civil war. Will pay to have this freedom. May of course bring some fight on to their territory.
Qadiran slave traders - no brainer. Looking for people who may be ex bandits, or miscreants in the PCs kingdom. Will pay handsomly.
Chelaxian slave traders - same as above.
Andoran Eagle Knights - Looking to find a slave trader 'crimial' that fled into the River Kingdoms. Or wishing to recruit. Or wishing to set up an "embassy" of sorts so that their model of free men is spread, and a sanctuary for ex slaves fleeing into the River Kingdoms.
Some of the "side-effects" or negative effects that CAN occur from any such agreement (either listed above or of your own design) can replace a negative event that you rolled - should you wish to do something different. Eventually you may not wish to do another Food Shortage event.....
(I highly reccommend you read Guide to the River Kingdoms. Armed with info on all of the River Kingdoms in that book, you can come up with a hundred different reasons for other River Kingdoms alone would wish to seek out the PCs kingdom for something. If you have the GameMastery hardbound book, there's some great charts on NPC motivations (randonly determined what they want) this is good for either rolling or cherry picking some ideas for what an NPC would be motivated to want to negotiate with the PCs. Finally the new Campaign Sourcebook to the Inner Sea is chock-full of organizations spread throughout Golarion - any of them could make a feasible visit to the PCs kingdom in search of some mutually beneficial agreement.)
Hope this helps,
Robert
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I see some examples here in regards to the trade agreements side of what I want to do, and they're good. Has anyone done something similar to the other types of situations I want to create? If so, I'd love to hear from you so we could share some ideas/thoughts.
heres a few that I have already used:
Religious order offers a partial amount of BPs to add towards the creation of shrine/temple/cathedral of that religion - and with a (some) string(s) attached based on the portfolio of the god. For instance, IMC Abadar church has already done this (offered to pay half the BP) - a shrine meant that the PCs can never have zero taxes. The PCs later took a donation to increase the shrine to a temple, but the taxes can never be lower than normal. They have the option to allow the church to increase this to a cathedral - but they have to do this for they do not want to agree to never allow their taxes to drop below Heavy.
This can be done with other religions. Other building types as well can work - perhaps someone wants to pay some one wishes to have a luxury store built, or a waterfront. etc. Find an angle of what they would want as compensation.
Golarion based organizations can also approach the PCs kingdom to offer services, or pay to have some influence.
Varisian caravans (w/ harrower) - they want to set up a camp to offer services. Want freedom to do their craft - but provide some measure of kick-back in economy. Could create issues with valuables being misplaced however by citizens of the PCs kingdom....
Pathfinder Society - they want to explore a region and create an excavation site somewhere (perhas the Tors of Levenies, or the ancient elven keep), they offer payment for allowing them to have access to the hex (basically the hex is of no use to the PCs kingdom for that timeframe)
Aspis Consortium - same as above - offers more money - but obviously not with good intentions.
Lumber Consortium - wants to set up a lumber mill camp in a forest hex. Pays...
Those are all great ideas! I appreciate the feedback. I've been looking over the Guide to the River Kingdoms, the new World Guide and anywhere else I can to try and come up with potential sources from which these scenarios can play out. Aspis Consortium came to mind as well as PFS, but I've been thinking about taking the Aspis idea and going a little deeper as they start taking deeper root in the PCs kingdom (with or without the kingdom's approval).
IMC, the 1 year anniversary of the PC's kingdom is upon them this month, and a Founder's Day celebration has been planned. Dignitaries from River Kingdoms that have expressed minor interest in this colony (in its current state) will be attending, as well as the Mayor of Restov's son (the deputy mayor) to inspect how things are going at this point. Several religious organizations have also sent word requesting that they be the presiding clergy over the ceremonies (and to discuss further involvement like has been spoken of in this thread).
These entourages are all bringing gifts with them to the festival, in most cases what will equate to BP, but I am unsure how much is sufficient without being considered too much or too little. I'm trying to come up with other forms of what these gifts may be that isn't BP, but haven't sat down to think it up yet.
I also like your idea about the Game Mastery Guide, which I too have. Very good ideas, as always, Robert!! Your campaigns have always been my favorite as a player, best DM I know.
Thanks,
Kevin
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Those are all great ideas! I appreciate the feedback.
You're quite welcome. Thanks for the kind words; obviously we're all here to help each other.
These entourages are all bringing gifts with them to the festival, in most cases what will equate to BP, but I am unsure how much is sufficient without being considered too much or too little. I'm trying to come up with other forms of what these gifts may be that isn't BP, but haven't sat down to think it up yet.
I'm not convinced that just straight BP is a satisfying gift - though certainly a very convenient and easy to adjudicate one.
I think it makes much more of an impact from a stroyline or roleplaying standpoint to have the gifts be BP - but for a specific purpose. This more readily ties the gift-bearer to whatever his/her motivations or personality would be.
My PCs killed a particular troll leader that was armed with a big nasty great sword. They knew that their allies to the east - Varnhold - was prone to build monuments. As a showing of these "gifts" you speak of, they presented the sword to Maegar Varn to be incorporated into their next monument - as it would be sized appropriately to be wielded by a statue version of Maegar or whomever. With this in mind, I shaved off a BP from the building of a monument in Varnhold.
Using this example, you could have dignitaries bring gifts that apply some measure of "discount" towards the construction of something, or perhaps towards some other kingdom aspect - such as a temporary boost to Stability for a couple turns, or whatever.
My point is - just giving "BP" is very generic and lackluster.
I also like your idea about the Game Mastery Guide, which I too have. Very good ideas, as always, Robert!! Your campaigns have always been my favorite as a player, best DM I know.Thanks,
Kevin
@DoomCrow
Hey Kev, when I first responded to your post, I had no idea it was you! Good seeing ya on here; what a nice surprise. I appreciate your sentiments there. Of course I wish whole-heartedly you didn't have to move 3500 miles away, and could very much continue to a part of our gaming table. OR even been here to give me a chance to be a player in this great campaign adventure, since no one round here wanted run it but me.
But at least since neither of us are DMing the other, we get the benefit of assisting one another and sharing campaign stories to inspire the other.
Guess we'll just have to count our blessings that we still have LOTRO to hook up on. :-)
Shandralyn is now 37th level
Robert