Here's a question / writing exercise:
What's the minimum number of deities that you really need for a roleplaying game? I asked this of my own group and they thought the answer was either 3 or 2 (weighing the benefits of making it good vs. evil or law vs. chaos was a side discussion.) It made me wonder why, if that was the answer, there are so many deities running around the D and D franchise.
I'd like to see some more discussion on this, and (why not?) some of your home brewed pantheons. Should there be one deity per alignment, or should we ignore alignment altogether?
Get creative!
I'd say ignore alignment altogether. Most people don't pray to gods in a multi-theistic universe because of philosophical compatibility. They pray to them because the gods control the forces of nature or offer protection to certain specific endeavors. That opens the door to MANY gods, though a reasonable setting will group portfolios in interesting ways.
In DMG II I think, there is a discussion on just this subject. The basic point of the proliferation is that the deities relate to character classes. For example: You need a LG paladin god (Heironeous), a god for druids (Obad-hai), one for rangers (Ehlonna) and so on. For things like magic, there are usually more than one, allowing for several alignments of mages (N Boccob, LN/E Wee Jas, NE Vecna), etc etc etc. This gives at least a dozen gods. Then repeat the process for every race, major or minor. Even if each race has only a few deities, it does add up. If you check the FR style, you then add deities from various cultures/countries. Eventually, you end up with hundreds of them, which isn't too unrealistic. =)
I'd still say that the minimum number of gods that can be used in play is one.
I think it depends on the intent of the question.
If you mean dieties as encounterable beings my answer is 0.
If you mean faiths, then my answer is one.
My personal opinion is that much is lost in having rivalries bewtween the faithful boil down to arguments between dieties of opposing alignments.
I think it adds more opportunity for intrigue and roleplay if their are many faiths worshipping the same diety - vying for worshippers, for resources from the local government, magic/spells perhaps.
However, such an approach requires more fleshing out of things on the DMs part - creating sects, and having some understanding of what each means in a given community, and a distribution, relative style, etc.
More dieties makes it easier.
Another route is to worship pantheons - and appeal to the god which is responsible for whatetever it is you are looking for - this cold even work for priests - they could serve "the gods" as opposed to a god. Which sort of addresses why someone would worship or invoke an evil god - its just part of honoring all of the gods.
Also, gods in our world are pretty regional - different areas have different divinities, and even the same divinities have different characteristics - so how many gods could depend on how big the world is - and if the gods are real - how aggressively they defend their territories.
This is the approach I like with a few of the gods having rival sects.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I ran a campaign that worked pretty nicely with four deities, whose ethoi could be described as :
* Lawful Good
* Lawful Evil
* Chaos, which we interpretted as "all loyalty to the clan or tribe"
* True Neutral, and planning something big
There was also a conservative Nature / Gaian intelligence that empowered druids, and a lot of clerics drew powr from little local godlings.
The goal to the four powers was struggle among them so that no two powers would seem as natural allies or particularly opposed.
Given that a cleric has no need of deity to gain access to their spells and domains, a minimum of 0 deities might be an option. In such a world, priests are representatives of concepts and ideas perhaps. Over time, gatherings of worshippers might form distinct ideas that evolve into deities.
Now that I think about it, that's an interesting thought experiment.
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In DMG II I think, there is a discussion on just this subject. The basic point of the proliferation is that the deities relate to character classes.
The problem is that unless a PC or NPC has divine caster levels, or intends to take them later, there's no reason to even pay lip service to the gods.
A player may write one on their character sheet, but seriously, will it even be mentioned again, let alone come into play?Are there any repurcussions if a wizard strays from the teachings of Boccob, or stays true? No, not unless they had plans to be a Mystic Theurge, and even then, there are others (Wee Jas, Vecna), with similar domains and portfolios who would easily take them in.
I don't like the idea that the only SRD way to gain clerical powers is to be a full-plate wearing, mace-wielding brute. It simply doesn't fit the concept of so many of the deities in any given pantheon, and is the inspiration for the 'Non-Generic Cleric' thread.
You could have a game where no-one is a 'cleric' (as per the PHB), but some of the class abilities are granted as boons from the relevant gods, based on heroic deeds. So the standard 'Jozan' would be a Fighter, who is granted some spells, a contemplative 'oracle' could be a wizard, who gains access to spells from extra domain or cleric lists, etc. But this would be a very different game than standard D&D.
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I wish I had a clear opinion on this, but large or small has served me well in different campaigns.
My group's been playing one way or another in Forgotten Realms since 1989, so we're all invested in the gods there and are comfortable when playign there. A few get left behind because there are indeed SO many, but it's cool there.
In Midnight, there is really no pantheon, and that was a nice break when we played there.
In Eberron, the gods didn't have any direct influence, just what the priests came up with, and we didn't care for that quite as much. But it fit the flavor of the world.
So far my group is VERY happy with Golarion's list of gods. I'm sure it will grow slightly with time but right now it's excellent, not to big or too small.
-DM Jeff
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It's definitely setting specific for me.
We enjoyed the large pantheons in Greyhawk (particularly how the Flan, Oeridians, Baklunish and Suel humans had different dieties, who had begun slowly merging together, giving it a very 'historical' feel, much like how modern faiths have incorporated all sorts of holidays and rituals and whatnot from previous religions) and the Realms (with it's hodgepodge of Finnish, Egyptian, Melnibonean, Celtic, Norse and completely made-up gods), but also loved how the Scarred Lands trimmed it down to one major god for each alignment (and when they began pumping out racial gods and demigods in later supplements, promptly houseruled them away, since the feel of a smaller pantheon was too cool to throw away).
On the one hand, I enjoy being able to pick and choose to find the 'perfect' god for my race, class, alignment. On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of alignment anyway, and had no problem with lawful good people serving a lawful evil diety, seeing him as the ideal choice to bring order and safety to the people in a dangerous world full of monsters.
I've got a huge fondness for the racial dieties that Roger Moore created (even if I don't really care for the *idea* of racial dieties), such as Solonor Thelandira, Flandal Steelskin and Arvoreen the Defender. I've played Clerics to several of these racial dieties, and love how they've gotten folded into settings (Aerdrie Faenya, for instance, being rumored to be a pre-Elven diety of one of the long-dead 'Creator Races' of the Realms, a contemporary to Jergal).
Newer racial dieties, like Sehanine Moonbow (who doesn't even follow the elven naming conventions, in addition to rewriting Corellon's sphere of influence, creation story and Lolth's story as well, since she's apparently never read any lore), don't impress me so much.
Dragonlance's notion that the gods were the gods, and different races saw them differently, was pretty cool. Then again, nobody but Takhisis ever did anything other than drop cryptic advice, so the other dozen dieties of Dragonlance amounted to a fat stack of jack.
I like alot of deities. Why? Because when there are only a few gods, the gods I like for my characters never get represented. I like things like a good god of undead that grants its good clerics rebuke undead instead of turning them, or the god of knowledge that forbids alcohol and lust since they get in the way of the pursuit of knowledge, or the god of chaotic god of beauty whos followers search out beauty in odd places.
That's one thing I never liked about D&D religions. The gods get some details, but not much. They get their favored weapon and their domains listed, and that's it. Religions are complex entities. That little big is good for mechanical game terms, but what about detailed orginizations? What about common beliefs? How do clerics of one god differenciate themselves of clerics of another faith? What about non-cleric followers? Maybe details of a Bard or Rogue evangelist of that god from the exact opposite alignment as the god. How about a LN god but there's an all out war between the LG churches and the LE churches? What about elven worshippers of hobgoblin deities or minitaor worshippers of halfling deities? These are never covered in D&D (at least to my satisfaction) and it really annoys me about the game. I tend to make athiest characters simply because I'd rather not deal with something so clumsily handled.
EDIT: Miko (from OotS) is a prime example of what I'd like to see more of (just not as annoying). Despite getting rejected as a paladin by the 12 gods, she still worshiped them. She thought she was doing the right thing. She wasn't, but that is really beside the point. Why can't there be more of that in D&D's world? Just don't limit it to paladins/blackguards (because that is very overdone). An evil fighter that worships a good fighting god does so because he likes the tactical feats specific to the god. A CG Ranger follows the same god as her NE mother because it is family tradition, even if she rebels against her mother's ways of doing things.
EDIT 2: I know I kinda contradicted myself in one post, but all I can say is that my view is complex.
In my homebrew, I have the demons and archons fight together against 'the Rosethorns', forces of good and evil that are constantly fighting each other while the material plane gets caught in the crossfire.
Well I am currently writing up a new homebrew. I have settled on 20 gods and have written them up. Instead of basing things on any racial gods I have gone with portfolio/alignment based gods loosely based of celtic/gaul mythology.
It has ended up being an 8 page document that I am quite happy with as there is a reason (mechanics wise and roleplaying wise) to worship every god. Each has their place. I prefer a pantheon of gods over few gods.
Just for fun here is one of my creative favourites:
Dagur [dag-er]
Dagur is a demon lord that was bound to the back of the fierce stallion Timosat for the good of the world. He is a fierce demon that in the beginning of creation caused the world to burn. He now is forced to travel above the world causing life to flourish with his heat. He was bound to his current penance by an alliance of the other gods. Each had their own reason to bind him and some may even have changed their minds since then, but his binding still holds. He is also known as the Burning One.
Alignment: Neutral
Domains: Fire, Death & Destruction
Symbol: A charred bone wrapped in horse hair
Favored Weapon: Flail
Area of control: Destructive cleansing fire.
Typical worshippers: Power hungry fools that wish for cleansing fire to destroy all who opposed them and their lord.
Duties of his clerics: A cleric of Dagur is a pyromaniac and relishes enacting revenge against clerics of other gods. They also continually look for a means to free their bound lord.
Special Benefit: Clerics of Dagur receive Resistance to fire equal to their clerical level. Ex: A cleric 5/ sorcerer 3 receive resistance to fire 5.
While we don't need (m)any, I say the more the merrier.
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The number of deities needed in a game has nothing to do with mechanics, in my opinion. It has everything to do with flavor and fluff. In my game I have four major religions.
The first is a druidic, nature worshipping religion, led by druids and bards. There are no gods, only nature spirits who provide the spells and powers of the druids.
Next is a full blown pantheon of 20+ gods. These are split into three factions of Good, Neutral and Evil. The gods are patterned after the greek, and to some degree the norse, gods.
Next I have a dragon religion of two gods. These gods are primarily worshiped by sorcerers.
And last I have a monotheistic religion that is very lawful and growing by leaps and bounds.
These four religions have a lot of conflict between one another and are mutually exclusive to one another. In other words, the druids do not believe in the other gods, but rather believe that they are rogue spirits. The monotheistic religion teaches that the other gods are in fact devils and demons masquerading as gods, etc.
THE best book I have ever found on building a religion is GURPS Religion. If you are planning on making your own religion then you simply must read this book. When you are done with the book you will likely be like me and have about ten religions made up and ready to go.
I am a big fan of smaller pantheons. I think settings like the Realms have a rediculously bloated list of gods. I am also not a fan of racial deities. I would rather have the various races worship one entity in radically different ways, even calling them different names (but, metagame-wise, knowing it's one god). Smaller numbers of gods also allow sects and cults within a single race or culture to develop which also worship the same god in many different ways. I think that is immensely more interesting than fifty bajillion divinities.
My current homebrew pantheon is about 11 gods. I need to add a few more (for example, a fire god and a non-evil war god), but I am really commited to keeping it at or under 15. There are no racial deities. I try to incorporate a number of concepts into each god's portfolio in interesting ways. The sun god is also the knowledge god; the storm god is also the sea god and the chaos god. The evil deity of undeath is also a god of earth (as in the cold, dead earth of a grave or tomb). And so on. I try to make sure that a wide array of peoples could be attracted to the same god by tying each to an abstract concept, an alignment, and an element of nature. Certain ones have strong racial affinities as well.
Another thing I am actually a big fan of is dead gods. I don't know why. Perhaps because it's a good way to let ancient cultures have different religions and logically explain why the deities aren't around anymore. Perhaps because it allows for cool story elements and even adventure plots (especially adventure plots!). Currently, I have one dead god in my setting, but am working on another. Two is a pretty big percentage when the total pantheon is signficantly less than 20 deities.
I should note that the above applies to full blown gods. Demigods are another matter. By simply stating that there are many relatively weak entities floating around the setting allows me to drop in things like Kyuss and the AoW without altering the cosmology. These are mainly sons and daughters of the other gods and, as previously mentioned, are pretty obscure. Making them otherwise would destroy the goal of having a small pantheon. So they're more like saints and important figures in the faiths of the "true" gods.
It also helps if the definition of "god" is somewhat blurrier, and especially to have it debated in game. I think it's far more interesting to have the religious types claiming that gods are a special breed of being, while more secular scholars claim the only difference between the wrath god and a "common" demon is their power level.
As far as having priests worship pantheons, I think this is an interesting idea. There's more room to play around with how clerics get their domains than people think. For example, a cleric could worship the pantheon of the Holy Kings in general. Every cleric of the pantheon could choose from Good, Law, and Healing. But each cleric would also select a more specific patron, which granted one or two domains, such as War and Strength, Knowledge and Magic, and so on. Thus you combine worshipping a pantheon and a specific god. Perhaps you could even switch the deity-specific domain each day or week or something.
You could also just create a general pool of domains themed around a pantheon, and clerics could choose freely from them. This lends itself to ancestor worship very well, too; particularly along racial lines (allowing for distinct racial religions without creating new deities or forcing them to choose one shared with other races).
Or perhaps there could be domains assigned by race. For example, dwarves are a lawful people. They worship the same gods as other races, but always with a lawful slant. Dwarven clerics can choose the Law domain even if their deity doesn't grant it, so long as that deity is not itself chaotic in alignment. Elves might get the Magic domain. Etc. It strikes me as a good way to blend fluff and crunch.
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As DM the only god I allow in my campaigns is ME.
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This is one of the things I HATE about D&D: Clerics. I SO wish they were eliminated from the game. Lemme tell ya sumthin, If I were Pelor, and you wanted me to grant you spells -- you're my b!tch.
"Oh really, you wanna cast Bless and give your non-Pelor worshipping, skanky blasphemers a +1, Go get your shine box!; you ain't gettin crap till my Temple bathroom shines."
For real, I hate the concept of Clerics in D&D. I will say this, though, the FR novel Finder's Bane, though written very poorly, describes how I'd like to see D&D gods done. The god Finder is not very powerful at all -- only has a handful of clerics and he speaks with them about their incantations for spells. I would like to see a D&D pantheon of CR30ish gods who can grant only x number of spells for use by their clerics a day. Obviously, clerics would become solely the perview of the NPC as they'd be far too restrictive AND weak for a PC.
-W. E. Ray
Two -- good vs evil.
These are our most fundamental moral distinctions -- clerics need a side to be on.
This is one of the things I HATE about D&D: Clerics.
I absolutely love them. Spiritual Leaders, Divine Champions, Healers of Body, Mind, and Spirit.
I wouldn't want them gone from the game at all.
But, of of curse, no one forces you to use them in your game. Just leave them out and BAM! Problem solved without messing up the game for everyone else (something wizards doesn't know how to do, and their game suffers for it).
What's the minimum number of deities that you really need for a roleplaying game?
It depends on the setting. Technically, you could run a game with no deities or divine spellcasting (instead relying on the healing discipline of phychometabolism). As a practical minimum, 1-3 deities can work for most campaigns (depending on the domain selection you allow for clerics and the role of druids). Note that the fewer deities there are in the campaign, the broader the portfolio of each needs to become and the more importance is placed on sects within each religion.
An example of a single deity:
Arash-Aten
the Two-Faced, Maker and Unmaker, the Watcher, the One
Greater Deity
Symbol: Expressionless face, half-white, half black
Alignment: Neutral
Portfolio: Crafts, creation, destruction, knowledge, life and death
Worshipers: Everyone
Cleric Alignments: (Maker) any non-evil; (Unmaker) any non-good
Domains: (Maker) Artifice, Chaos, Creation, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Protection, Strength, Sun; (Unmaker) Chaos, Darkness, Death, Destruction, Evil, Law, Madness, Pestilence, Storm, Trickery, War
Favored Weapon: (Maker) warhammer; (Unmaker) battleaxe
Arash-Aten is the lord of the universe, a creator and destroyer, master crafter, observer of all, and arbiter over life and death. He appears in many guises, but a common form is a two-headed humanoid, one half with pure white skin and golden hair and the other half with inky black skin and ash-gray hair.
Worship of Arash-Aten in split among numerous sects, without any central controlling authority. Even within sects, central authority is rare. Some common sects include:
Balancers (Law, Destruction)- Seek to "balance the scales" against law-breakers, using any means necessary.
Brotherhood of the Eye (Knowledge)- Seek knowlege through prophecy and scholarship.
Crafters (Artifice)- Concerned with building and manufacturing.
Doombringers (War)- Militant sect involved in conflicts between military forces (often on both sides).
Dusk Fellowship (Death, Pestilence)- Enamored with death, disease, and the undead (usually secretive and opposed by all other sects).
Favored Ones (Luck)- Petitions for good fortune and success in risky endeavors (many adventuring clerics).
Preservers (Healing, Protection)- Devoted to the prevention and restoration of harm (popular among common folk).
Backstory for the setting using Arash-Aten:
As far as most people know (or care), Arash-Aten was the creator of the universe and has ruled it since the beginning. Arcane and theological scholars know that this is untrue (and Arash-Aten refuses to speak on the subject, other than to deny it), no matter what some sects' dogma claims.
From what has been pieced together from other sources, before the universe existed, all was in flux. Reality had no regular form and even time itself had no meaning. Eventually, the universe was created by an unknown entity (or group of entities) out of this flux, what has come to be known as the Far Realm or Outside.
At some point, powerful beings known today as the Old Ones ruled the universe. Whether they were the creator entities or their decendents cannot be determined. What can be determined is they were flighty, unpredictable, and could reshape reality to their whims. They came into conflict with a group of beings identified as gods in the fragmentary myths that survive.
Whether the gods were a faction of the Old Ones, their creations, or arose from another source is unknown. What is known is the conflict between the gods and the Old Ones was long and savage. Early civilizations and entire planes were destroyed. In the end, all of the Old Ones were slain or driven out into the Far Realm and all known links and portals were destroyed or sealed to prevent their return.
Of the gods, only two survived the final battle, both critically wounded: Arash, god of life, crafts, and knowledge, and Aten, god of death, destruction, and war. To survive, they merged into one being. The following fragment, found among ancient prophecies in an early pre-human ruin, purports to be their final conversation as seperate entities.
"Aten- It is done. Perhaps it is fitting that we die in accomplishing our task, but the [universe]1 is safe from [the enemy]2.
Arash- For a time. As you know, anything that is created can be destroyed, even the [barrier]3.
Aten- Alas! Even the strongest gate can be unbarred from the inside. I fear it will come to naught in the end.
Arash- The [universe] deserved a chance, did it not? But if we join as one, it has a better one. In time, we will..."
1- A term meaning "dream of life" or "living reality"
2- A simplification of "hostile beings from beyond reason"
3- A closer translation might be "wall around the worlds"
Note that in this setting Alienists (Complete Arcane) are the ultimate bad guys, as their meddling can (potentially) allow the Old Ones back in into the universe.
An example of two feuding pantheons based on Law and Chaos:
Arran
the Wanderer, Minstrel of Chaos, Divine Jester
Lesser Deity
Symbol: Bent lute
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Portfolio: Chaos, knowledge, music, pranksters, travel
Worshipers: Varies
Cleric Alignments: Any Chaotic
Domains: Chaos, Knowledge, Trickery
Favored Weapon: Rapier
Korath
the Bloody, Champion of Chaos, Fury of the Gods
Lesser Deity
Symbol: Bloodied axe
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Portfolio: Chaos, conflict, rage, strength, war
Worshipers: Varies
Cleric Alignments: Any Chaotic
Domains: Chaos, Strength, War
Favored Weapon: Greataxe
Silar
the Slippery, Infiltrator of Chaos, Lord of Illusion
Lesser Deity
Symbol: Twisted rune
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Portfolio: Chaos, illusion, intrigue, magic, trickery
Worshipers: Varies
Cleric Alignments: Any Chaotic
Domains: Chaos, Magic, Trickery
Favored Weapon: Short Sword
Garrin
the Guide, Herald of Law, Explorer of the Planes
Lesser Deity
Symbol: Compass
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Portfolio: Exploration, journeys, law, magic, travel
Worshipers: Varies
Cleric Alignments: Any Lawful
Domains: Law, Magic, Travel
Favored Weapon: Longsword
Harnid
the Mighty, Fist of Law, Supreme Monk
Lesser Deity
Symbol: Fist
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Portfolio: Discipline, law, monks, strength, war
Worshipers: Varies
Cleric Alignments: Any Lawful
Domains: Law, Strength, War
Favored Weapon: Unarmed (fist)
Melthor
the Protector, Shield of Law, Divine Scribe
Symbol: Tower
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Portfolio: Knowledge, law, learning, protection, wisdom
Worshipers: Varies
Cleric Alignments: Any Lawful
Domains: Knowledge, Law, Protection
Favored Weapon: Heavy Mace
Note that in this setting druids (worshiping nature in general) are the common divine caster, given that the conflict between Law and Chaos is a central theme and clerics will be rare (see Louise Cooper's Time Master or Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone novels for inspiration).
Not sure whether it would help or not but I have seen a book at my local library called the Encyclopedia of Gods: Over 2500 deities of the world, listing gods from numerous cultures across the world and time including Dis Pater and Dagon and Tiamat and Ogma (Ogmius) and Baal, etc. It should be available at amazon or other libraries I would think
Have that book - it's very good reference material.