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This wont come up much because the nature of most games limits the fight to about a 60 foot area. This question is more about wilderness and open battle fields where a ranged combatant can attack from far away.
If an archer is far away from the target, say 500 ft. or thereabouts, will the target automatically see the archer if he is attacked or will he have to make the 50+ DC to spot him? I know that you can't use stealth while attacking but would you really no longer be hiding if you used a range weapon at that distance?
I know the arrow once it hit the target could give a general idea as to where the attacker is. Would it really be enough to give away the location completely?
Also, if the long range attacker was a rogue, would they continue to have concealment just from the distance alone if the target kept failing a perception check? Basically, would they be able to apply sneak attack damage with each attack if the target continued to fail to spot him?
Are there rules for distances of visibility in different terrains? I thought I saw some in the Core Rulebook but I am having trouble finding them.
I'd really like to know people's opinions on this too, since it never seems to come up in my games either.
From a GM's perspective, I'd be inclined to say that a failed distance Perception check does count as concealment for the purposes of sniping- the kind of "Hey, who's shooting at us!?" sort of situation. In the real world (a dangerous place to reference, I know) most sniping is done using distance for protection rather than ducking back behind concealment.
On that line of thinking, I'd allow the victims to know which direction the shot came from, even if they couldn't see the assailant, as long as they didn't fail the check by more than 5.
This wont come up much because the nature of most games limits the fight to about a 60 foot area. This question is more about wilderness and open battle fields where a ranged combatant can attack from far away.
If an archer is far away from the target, say 500 ft. or thereabouts, will the target automatically see the archer if he is attacked or will he have to make the 50+ DC to spot him? I know that you can't use stealth while attacking but would you really no longer be hiding if you used a range weapon at that distance?
I know the arrow once it hit the target could give a general idea as to where the attacker is. Would it really be enough to give away the location completely?
Also, if the long range attacker was a rogue, would they continue to have concealment just from the distance alone if the target kept failing a perception check? Basically, would they be able to apply sneak attack damage with each attack if the target continued to fail to spot him?
Are there rules for distances of visibility in different terrains? I thought I saw some in the Core Rulebook but I am having trouble finding them.
You will know the general direction from which you got attacked (just common sense no rules here). The perception check is essentially to know from what square he is in. The +50 DC is fairly reasonable considering that it can be rather difficult to do in real life at much shorter distances unless you were able to watch the projectile.
Now the archer can remain hidden after shooting you. He only gets 1 single shot and has to reroll his stealth at -20.
The PRD has some rules for various terrains, though they don't seem to quite be what you're looking for, but they could give you some ideas on how homebrew up what you want. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html (scroll half way down)
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I'm just wondering if that same GM required a DC 50 Perception check from the Rogue just to target the victim to begin with?
Distance modifiers for Perception checks (beyond the normal ranges that Pathfinder combats tend to take place) don't work right.
If a Rogue player really wants to do this, then bear in mind that that the victim could try to dive behind a tree, roll an 8 on a Stealth check, and now the Rogue needs to make a DC 58 Perception check to see his target.
It can't just be the victim who is taking +50 to his Perception check DCs.
If the archer isn't using Stealth there is no need for a Perception check. If they can see you at 500 ft, then you can see them.
--Vrocket launcher
So you can automatically see everything from any distance if it isn't using stealth?
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So you can automatically see everything from any distance if it isn't using stealth?If the archer isn't using Stealth there is no need for a Perception check. If they can see you at 500 ft, then you can see them.
--Vrocket launcher
No, but there is a maximum encounter distance per terrain type in the environment chapter.
--Vrock, paper, scissors
This came up a lot in my 'Legacy of Fire' game, as most of the wilderness terrain was open desert and plains, which allow a fairly ridiculous maximum starting encounter distance. Occasionally, this distance would translate into a perception penalty greater than the maximum Percpetion rolls (20+perception score) of either group of combatants. In this case, the encounter distance would lessen to the maximum allowed by the highest perception score. I would also take size modifiers into account when dealing with these encounters, adding the size penalty on stealth to the perception penalty from distance. This worked well for giant beasties like Rocs, where it would make sense for the PCs to be able to notice something that big approaching. This would sometimes give them a round or two to actively hide or do something before the flying monster would notice them. However, for most medium sized creatures, the initiator of the encounter would usually be the one with the highest perception score.
I should point out that Stealth was never used in the initial perception checks in this case since that would assume that either group was always actively using stealth when they moved. I know of few parties able to pull this off indefinitely (short of a party of all rangers or rogues), and since few, if any, flying monsters have 'Hide in Plain sight', it was almost impossible for a flying creature to utilize any sort of stealth in open sky terrain (with the exception of using freakish weather).
Anyways, assuming you're using a DC of 0 to notice either group, it would be entirely possible to pull off the high-range sniping trick assuming one could continually track the target with perception checks.
So you can automatically see everything from any distance if it isn't using stealth?If the archer isn't using Stealth there is no need for a Perception check. If they can see you at 500 ft, then you can see them.
--Vrocket launcher
No, but there is a maximum encounter distance per terrain type in the environment chapter.
--Vrock, paper, scissors
In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6 × 40 feet, although the specifics of your map might restrict line of sight
There's identical text for the other terrains. It doesn't talk about opposed rolls and what not. Also they do explicitly point out the DC for noticing a guy just standing out in a field, DC is 0. Thus you would need to make a DC 50 check to notice a guy 500 ft. away. Granted I'd still rule that you get a +20 bonus for getting shot at to parallel it to sniping.
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If an archer is far away from the target, say 500 ft. or thereabouts, will the target automatically see the archer if he is attacked or will he have to make the 50+ DC to spot him? I know that you can't use stealth while attacking but would you really no longer be hiding if you used a range weapon at that distance?
The archer should really still be using the 'Sniping' option of the Stealth Skill: the Perception penalty due to the distance is what makes sniping a viable tactic despite the -20 penalty to Stealth it suffers... it's kinda' the point really - using long distance to your advantage.
In this case, for example, the sniping archer fires one shot, then makes his Stealth roll at -20. Assume he's got zero bonus to Stealth, and rolls a 10 - that sets the Perception DC to spot him at -10. However, the 500ft range gives the guys he shot at a -50 to Peception checks, so they still need to roll a 40 to spot him...
I know the arrow once it hit the target could give a general idea as to where the attacker is. Would it really be enough to give away the location completely?
If he's cocky enough to not bother with Stealth (due to trying to volly more arrows I'd guess), then he should get spotted, IMHO... however, your DM may disagree, so...
As erik542 points out, the base DC listed under the Perception Skill to spot a 'visible creature' is DC 0 (note that this is actually harder to spot than the unskilled sniper trying to use Stealth... which is weird...), although what your DM will allow you to spot without a roll at which ranges will probably vary. If it's daylight you should at least get a -2 to the DC for 'favourable conditions', but that still means an unskilled, average Wisdom, character can only notice people 120ft away (under 'take 10' conditions). Put ranks in Perception!
Personally I'd suggest that the base DC 50 to spot a 'visible creature' is what the sniper needs to spot his victim... but once he's started shooting (without bothering to use Stealth) then the victim should automatically spot him - after all, he's being brazen about it!
Also, if the long range attacker was a rogue, would they continue to have concealment just from the distance alone if the target kept failing a perception check? Basically, would they be able to apply sneak attack damage with each attack if the target continued to fail to spot him?
Sneak Attack damage is limited to 30ft. The Sniper Rogue archetype from the APG gets to add 10ft to that limit at 3rd level and every 3 levels after that (so, a total maximum Sneak Attack range of 90ft by 18th level, unless you go epic). So generally Sneak Attack sniping isn't possible (even if you're 60ft away they can probably get to you in a single Charge action... that's hardly sniping...).
Are there rules for distances of visibility in different terrains? I thought I saw some in the Core Rulebook but I am having trouble finding them.
They're under the 'Stealth and Detection in the...' headings in the various terrain types of the Environment chapter of the Core book.
You have to use some common sense and that is why a DM is present in a game.
If you have a football player standing in the end zone of one football field and another football player standing at the other endzone you can be a solid 130 yards between them. If you then have fans up in the nose bleed seats they can for the most part see all players without any real issue at all. This easily puts them about 500 feet apart from the furtherest group.
While at the same time if you are having two guys in a corn field they can by six feet apart and not see each other.
In general if one person can see another person to hit with a targeted ranged attack, then the other person can see them in return as long as that person is not hidding... and then the sniping and stealth rules come into effect.
Yes, there are grey areas on either end of this... but as stated this is why you need a DM for your group that is fair and you trust to make a ruling on the options of sight.
Just my two bits and your results may vary. :)
There is a wondrous item sniper goggles, which essentially enables you to snipe at any distance.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items-from-apg# TOC-Sniper-Goggles
Your weapon still has to reach that far and you need to hit, penalties are really heavy on 500 feet.
If you surprise the target that way, it is flat-footed, what means you deal sneak attack without stealth. Then initiative comes and combat begins. If you are sneaking you can do a full attack action giving you multiple attacks with sneak attack and next round hide again or stay hidden at -20, what can essentially be brought to 0 by taking a halfling with the swift as shadows racial trait and the rogue talent stealthy sniper.
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There is a wondrous item sniper goggles, which essentially enables you to snipe at any distance.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items-from-apg# TOC-Sniper-Goggles
Your weapon still has to reach that far and you need to hit, penalties are really heavy on 500 feet.
If you surprise the target that way, it is flat-footed, what means you deal sneak attack without stealth. Then initiative comes and combat begins. If you are sneaking you can do a full attack action giving you multiple attacks with sneak attack and next round hide again or stay hidden at -20, what can essentially be brought to 0 by taking a halfling with the swift as shadows racial trait and the rogue talent stealthy sniper.
Linked that for you.
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There is a wondrous item sniper goggles, which essentially enables you to snipe at any distance.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items-from-apg# TOC-Sniper-Goggles
Your weapon still has to reach that far and you need to hit, penalties are really heavy on 500 feet.
If you surprise the target that way, it is flat-footed, what means you deal sneak attack without stealth. Then initiative comes and combat begins. If you are sneaking you can do a full attack action giving you multiple attacks with sneak attack and next round hide again or stay hidden at -20, what can essentially be brought to 0 by taking a halfling with the swift as shadows racial trait and the rogue talent stealthy sniper.
I forgot to add these into that part about being able to add sneak attack damage to those long range attacks. Sorry, I wrote that all up with little sleep and only one proof read pass.
But yes, that does answer the question I thought I was asking in the first place.
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I should clarify that I am the DM in this situation. I have not seen this situation come up in the past, but I like the idea of an NPC who challenges himself to stalk and kill targets from crazy distances.
Like I mentioned above, I wrote up the first post while I was very tired. Now that I read it and thought about it, there really is a good amount of common sense involved.
Thanks guys. I will return a little later and respond to some these comments. I think this is a great discussion that can be expanded upon.
I am planning to use that for my halfling ninja with a slingstaff enchanted with the dinstance quality, so its range is 160 feet. Then shoot poisoned bullets on a full attack, perhaps have it double poisoned by the teams alchemist for higher DC.
The combination of a small flying carpet and the mistmail could be nice too, then you are a small flying cloud probably difficult to spot hehe.
Or you could dip into red mantis assasin, but then you are a red cloud, easier to spot and unusual. Though perhaps you raise superstition, a red cloud being a supernatural sign of sudden death of someone, an ill omen striking fear into your enemies.
Warslinger racial halfling trait ensures the full attak with a sling, but you can take a bow anyway.
If you then add Bleeing strike and bleed quality on the weapon, its gonna be nasty.
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What I haven't really seen answered is this...
If a GM maintains that a player can't spot a sniper who is not hiding unless they make an obscene Perception check, did the GM make that very same Perception check to allow the sniper to even see their target (who is also not hiding) in order to shoot him?
You shouldn't apply a rule (even one that doesn't work right) to only one side in a fight.
Bleeding Strike is a rogue talent that deals one bleed damage per sneak attack dice, but only once.
Wounding is a weapon enhancement and deals one bleed damage that stacks with itself.
So on first sneak attack you deal 5 bleed damage plus one from wounding and with every other hitting attack one more from wounding.
I would say the distance should apply to the sniper too somehow, especially if he´s not hiding. Heymitch you are right there.
The sniper needs to stealth, otherwise it could only be one surprise attack.
There was some ability or feat dealing with distance and perception, but i dont remember it right now.
Eagle Eye the Scout manages (because he's awesome) to spot the massed form of the party and their wagon train moving along the road at 500' away.
He draws his bow and lets the arrow fly off into the distance, aimed at the person on point.
The arrow alerts the travellers to Eagle Eye's presence and they start to look for him.
Although he is standing out in the open, he is hard to spot due to the distance (he is very small at that range, and probably wearing some kind of appropriate-to-terrain clothing)
Spot a person in the open = DC0
Range (500') = DC+50.
the party MAY also receive a bonus is ifs a good bright day of +2.
They will need to make a 50 or better to 'spot' him. he doesn't even need to Stealth to hide - he is almost impossible to spot as is. He can try a Stealth roll if he wanted to (to crank that DC50 up) but he'd be at -20. Though why youd waste a move action is beyond me when he could just keep plugging out shot after shot.
The party will probably move off the road to break his line of sight.
Very true... if you take the Perception rules too strickly, then (for example) it's impossible to see the moon... ever...
The moon gets a stealth penalty for it's extra colossal size and the fact that it's bright.
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The questions were asked with the assumption that the sniper spotted the party. It is very easy to optimize a character to spot people and things at far distances. For example, I was able to build a 12th level character with a +34 perception check, the Eagle Eye feat and I gave him a spy glass. That means the DC to spot the party 500 feet away is cut from 50 to 20 (spyglass cuts the penalty in half and Eagle Eye subtracts 5 from the total,) and the sniper makes it immediately if you follow the "no auto fail on skill checks," rule.
SO the answer to, "Is the DM having the sniper ignore the same perception check the players are making?" is no. The sniper is just built to make the check every time.
That is not the issue. The issue was if the sniper was given concealment if the party failed to spot him after he attacked.
After all the comments here, I decided that the sniper would gain surprise, but not concealment due to distance alone. The fact that the party cannot spot him, should they fail a perception check, will not allow the party to be considered flat-footed against his attacks. The sniper will need to use the stealth skill to officially gain the needed concealment to make the party flat-footed. If the sniper is wearing sniper goggles, the flat-footed party is a big deal at that distance.
The fact that, even if the sniper can't be spotted, he still needs to make a stealth check does make some sense. The party is undoubtedly going to dive for their own cover and even if they don't or cant, they will be watching for arrows they need to dodge. The stealth check means the sniper is waiting for the target to let their guard down, or looking for ways to hide their attacks.
Should the party use their own stealth checks, the sniper will need to make a check to spot them. The sniper wont need to make a check if they simply move, unless they move out of sight. For example, a fighter who starts running in a straight line towards the sniper does not need a perception check to keep spotting. The rogue who runs behind the cart to move out of sight, and the ranger who dives into the underbrush will both need perception checks to spot. Naturally, the rogue would be nearly impossible to spot as they have a solid object in the way.
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Are you using iron sights or optics?
Modern optics make all the difference in the range of combat.
Although, I was once told the Welsh Longbowman could fire accurately up to 200 yards. I have no idea if that is true, but they were used in tight groups and were firing at tight groups (who were stuck in mud in one important battle,) and thus they would be bound to hit something if the bows could indeed fire at that range.
I only apply such ridiculous range penalties on Perception checks made during combat, where everyone's attention is divided and things are easily missed. Exceptions abound of course.
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This wont come up much because the nature of most games limits the fight to about a 60 foot area. This question is more about wilderness and open battle fields where a ranged combatant can attack from far away.
If an archer is far away from the target, say 500 ft. or thereabouts, will the target automatically see the archer if he is attacked or will he have to make the 50+ DC to spot him? I know that you can't use stealth while attacking but would you really no longer be hiding if you used a range weapon at that distance?
I know the arrow once it hit the target could give a general idea as to where the attacker is. Would it really be enough to give away the location completely?
Also, if the long range attacker was a rogue, would they continue to have concealment just from the distance alone if the target kept failing a perception check? Basically, would they be able to apply sneak attack damage with each attack if the target continued to fail to spot him?
Are there rules for distances of visibility in different terrains? I thought I saw some in the Core Rulebook but I am having trouble finding them.
Alright, now I didn't read the whole article, but I saw something really important missed here. A rogue can only sneak attack within 20 ft.
There's a class feature in the sniper archetype that raise it to like 60 I think.
Not 500.
I addressed this. I forgot to include that the sniper was using Sniper Goggles from the APG in my original post.
Please at least skim through the rest of the responses to see the other details on this particular item and the issues discussed here. The conversation has been enlightening and I think you will find it interesting.
Are you using iron sights or optics?
1.5x scope.
So that means 330' is 220', which given that would = DC22 to see the man size figure standing in the open, hitting him in the heart would be an 'impossible' feat, let alone twenty times consistently.
To put things in perspective, the average spectator (0 level human, 10 wis) would need an 18 or better on a D20 to spot a player crossing the half way line if he was standing at the goalposts. To see a figure at the opposite end, he'd need a 36 on a D20 - he actually cannot do it.
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Are you using iron sights or optics?1.5x scope.
So that means 330' is 220', which given that would = DC22 to see the man size figure standing in the open, hitting him in the heart would be an 'impossible' feat, let alone twenty times consistently.
To put things in perspective, the average spectator (0 level human, 10 wis) would need an 18 or better on a D20 to spot a player crossing the half way line if he was standing at the goalposts. To see a figure at the opposite end, he'd need a 36 on a D20 - he actually cannot do it.
I think we are forgetting situational bonuses and special circumstances.
For example, we keep bringing up stadiums and sport games. In that particular case the spectator knows where to look, has a great field of view, and has multiple people to watch. In that case he isn't so much looking for a single individual but looking at a group playing a game.
Now lets look at a different situation, that actually has come up in a game I played.
This time we are only 60 feet away, 30 feet above the target area, and looking down on a large crowd moving through a market. What would be the difficulty to spot a single individual moving through the crowd?
The DM actually set it at 17, but my character had no ranks in Perception and ended up failing the check. I think the check should have been higher. If we were just going with distance, the check would have been lower, about 6. But that is with the target being out in the open. He was actively using the crowd and the stealth skill. Assuming this target had just a +2 to stealth, and that he rolled a 10, the DC raises to 18. What about the crowd? They would count at cover, but we are dealing with cover that looks similar to the target. Does the crowd grant a bonus to stealth? I would say yes, +4 sounds reasonable. So the DC would be 22. That isn't too unreasonable for someone with a few ranks in Perception, but it would have been impossible for my character with no bonuses at all.
Lets look at the sniper situation again. Lets assume a few things first. On top of those assumptions is that this sniper is hunting the party and is a smart sniper. This isn't a random encounter where the sniper just randomly see's the party a long way off. He has set up an ideal spot to watch a route he knows the PCs are going to be using. He has seen the party and knows distinguishing markings to look for. He is trained and experienced in spotting prey at far distances. He has all the right equipment to both spot, identify, and kill at far distances. Lastly, while he has everything working for him, he has built his hide to make it difficult for the party to spot him.
What does this mean for the DCs each party needs to spot each other?
This is where I am kind of making things up as I go. So, the sniper is watching a specific area, and so I would lower the DC by 5. This is because the sniper only has to look at a specific, clearly marked area. The party is going be traveling in a group, which makes them a bigger target to spot, but let us assume they don't travel with a cart or horses. Because of the group being together, I would lower the DC once again but this time by 3. If there were horses, it would lower by 5, and a cart would lower it by 8 (at least that is what I think. Let me know if I am wrong.) So the DC is lowered by 8 (specific area, no horses or cart but still in a group.) From 500 feet away, the DC is now 42. The sniper is the one I posted about before. He has the Eagle Eye feat from the APG, which lowers the DC by five to 37. But wait, he also is using a spyglass to keep watch. That cuts the increase in the DC due to distance by half. That means the DC is really 25-13=12. Yep, 12. The sniper has a perception bonus of +34, so he really doesn't need the spyglass to spot the party.
Now the party. Considering that the DC to spot something rarely goes above 30, I don't expect any of the PCs to have a perception modifier above +17 at level 10. Most players don't think about optimizing their perception skill, needing the feats for other parts of their character. The sniper would pick a high place to hide, as well as one that he can conceal and escape from. The PCs don't know to look for him, and thus don't know ahead of time to look at that spot. This means before combat, the DC to spot the sniper is impossibly high. I would allow a stealth check to create the hide the sniper is watching from. This sniper has +30 to hide (from class abilities, skill ranks, and equipment,) and if he takes 10, the DC to spot him becomes 90.
But what about after he fires arrows? Still impossible to spot him it turns out. I wold give the PCs some help and lower the DC slightly because they have an idea of where to watch. I would lower it by 5 in fact, just to be nice. But that really doesn't help them. The sniper does take a -10 to his stealth from sniping (taking the rogue talent to lower the normal -20.) so the DC to spot him becomes 75 if he is actively hiding between shots.
What does this mean? It means this encounter became less about killing the enemy, and more about hiding from him, tracking him, and trying to out think him in the game he started.
Important thing about the perception chart is that it's specifically identified as a set of guidelines, not hard rules
The following table gives a number of guidelines.
When they collapsed spot and hear noise into one skill, it put more burden on the DM to do ad hoc determinations for situations like this, and to cover that, there are the modifyers for favorable, unfavorable, and terrible conditions.
The +1/10 distance rule works in situations were eyesight is impaired, like by shadows distractions or obstructions like a typical dungeon environment. Note how it's grouped right before being behind a door or wall. That modifyer is largely about hearing and other senses, and it does make a lot more sense in that context - hearing someone shooting a bow from 500 ft away is practically impossible.
The modifyer for someone totally out in the open but at extreme range should start with a +2 or +5 to the DC for terrible conditions - as there's so much in the field of view see that's not Waldo the sniper. As the foot note says, a lot of noise would interfere with a hearing based check, or strong stench interferes with a smell based check, this would be the equivelent for vision.
The distance mods should come into play if vision isn't the primarily avalable perception sense, like if the sniper is not just standing in the open, but rather like how a sniper in a ghillie suit is actually effectivly invisible at 500 feet in tall grass, practically impossible to detect despite attacking, so able to snipe with impunity.
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The moon gets a stealth penalty for it's extra colossal size and the fact that it's bright.
And that's the point... the moon gets -4 to Stealth for every doubling of size from medium... so a big penalty. But the guy trying to see the moon gets a flat -1 penalty per 10ft distance between him and the moon... See the problem?
Put another way, if you can see a normal guy a X feet distance, you can see a guy twice his size at X + 40ft, and a guy four times his size at X + 80ft, etc., etc., ad infinatum...
Or, put another way again, if a normal sized guy stands a mere 160ft away, he's as hard to see as a fine sized object (like an ant) next to you...
I think we are forgetting situational bonuses and special circumstances.
This time we are only 60 feet away, 30 feet above the target area, and looking down on a large crowd moving through a market. What would be the difficulty to spot a single individual moving through the crowd?
The DM actually set it at 17, but my character had no ranks in Perception and ended up failing the check.
the thing is though, what we are looking at is 'flat RAW', which in actual game play is supposed to be transparent enough as a system that both player and GM can have a reliable protocl for establishing the difficulty of a said task.
To go back to the football field, the problem is that the only real guideline that doesn't involve fiat is to consider the conditions as 'favourable', which confer only a simple +2 bonus.
Now I happen to be in complete 100% agreement with you that the GM should be in the position of considering all the factors and then making a judgment about what the check should be, however in setting a figure he has to have a good understanding of what that figure is going to mean in real terms compared to the players capacities. Its possible to have characters (ie Druids and Monks) kicking along with crazy high perception from a very early level, others never catch up.
So how do you determine 'fair'?
Similarly the 'crowd' situation, that only counts as unfavourable (-2) though a rushing crowd might make it Terrible (-5) and both of those may incorporate Distraction (a further -5) with a 6 base for range. technically the person in the crowd can't stealth either (by RAW)
At the end of the day, I'm just arguing that the RAW needs to be set in a way that makes sense, and avoids player animosity or feelings of fiat - and sometimes I think the Perception (and Stealth) rules have at the same time been oversimplified and then rammed full of complexity.
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Bleeding Strike is a rogue talent that deals one bleed damage per sneak attack dice, but only once.
Wounding is a weapon enhancement and deals one bleed damage that stacks with itself.
So on first sneak attack you deal 5 bleed damage plus one from wounding and with every other hitting attack one more from wounding.
I don't believe that's correct. Multiple strikes from a Wounding weapon will stack with themselves, but that damage won't stack with Bleeding Strike. You would deal bleed damage equal to the greater of the bleed damage from Wounding or Bleeding Strike, but not from each.
See Bleed rules in the Core Book p.565 under Appendix 2: Conditions. "Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage". Multiple bleed effects that deal hit point damage do not stack. Two bleed effects would stack if one caused hit point damage, and one caused ability damage or drain.
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I was going about my day when a blaring error in my last post hit me.
I said that at level 10, I wouldn't expect a PCs perception check to be much more then 17. That number should be much higher, like 22, or possibly as high as 25.
And yeah, I agree that by RAW, the perception check and the DCs involved can become really frustrating when dealing with unusual situations or great distances.
Bleeding Strike is a rogue talent that deals one bleed damage per sneak attack dice, but only once.
Wounding is a weapon enhancement and deals one bleed damage that stacks with itself.
So on first sneak attack you deal 5 bleed damage plus one from wounding and with every other hitting attack one more from wounding.I don't believe that's correct. Multiple strikes from a Wounding weapon will stack with themselves, but that damage won't stack with Bleeding Strike. You would deal bleed damage equal to the greater of the bleed damage from Wounding or Bleeding Strike, but not from each.
See Bleed rules in the Core Book p.565 under Appendix 2: Conditions. "Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage". Multiple bleed effects that deal hit point damage do not stack. Two bleed effects would stack if one caused hit point damage, and one caused ability damage or drain.
You are probably right, didnt consider that.
Mh, i have to think about if the rogue ability or the weapon enhancement is better.|
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To be honest, the biggest problem with the Perception rules is the inclusion of 'Notice a visible creature' at 'DC 0' in the table. That's the same DC as hearing a conversation... so, under the RAW, it's impossible to see someone you can't hear talking normally... which is sheer madness.
Generally, at the maximum ranges you can shoot people in the game (so 1,200ft for a heavy crossbow, until you start to get into high-level long range spells and the like) you shouldn't have any need for a Perception roll to spot a guy who's not trying to remain hidden. 400 yards isn't really that far...
The Perception Skill talks about opposing Stealth, and noticing details - so it shouldn't ever really be required for noticing general stuff. Seeing a guy lobbing crossbow bolts at you from 400 yards away shouldn't require a roll at all... recognising his face would though... and if he was trying not to be seen, then that would require an opposed roll too...
... Which is why you can see the moon, even in the game world - it's not making any attempt to hide itself! ;)
A door is +5 mod to the perception DC, wall +10, but that doesn't mean you can see through a wall with x-ray vision by having a high perception. Vision is blocked, the modifyer is for sound.
The +1/10ft is the same thing, it's meant to be applied to hearing/smell, not sight - distance doesn't block vision, but harder to hear/smell.
In 3.5 vision perceptions and hearing were seperate skills, now they're one, but that means now not all modifiers apply to all uses. You have to make a judgement which modifiers apply to which kinds of senses and under which circumstances.
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In 3.5 vision perceptions and hearing were seperate skills, now they're one, but that means now not all modifiers apply to all uses. You have to make a judgement which modifiers apply to which kinds of senses and under which circumstances.
Yes... it's just a pity they couldn't have simply listed which modifiers in the table are for which senses - it would hardly have put the word count over the top...
Agree - not to mention reconciling the chart with the charts under invisiblily, the bits under stealth, and whatnot. Tons of details like that still need to get cleaned up.
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the -1/10ft applies to all perception checks, and in 3.5 it applies to both sight and hearing.
This isn't a problem with just Pathfinder. It is an issue in many RPGs.
Are there modifiers for spotting larger or smaller things?
For example, I know it is easier to spot a car at a far distance then a person.
Also, the Perception checks could be home ruled to say that only passive checks suffer the -1/10ft rule. If you know what you are looking for and where to look, you are pretty focused and exclude everything you know shouldn't be looked at.
I would still use the -1/10ft for stealth vs. perception checks. In that case, you really only know what you are looking for, and have to look at more to find it.
Right, yea, 3.5 was like that I forgot - bad rule. Like everyone needs glasses, with the average person blind past 200ft.
Regardless, in Pathfinder the perception modifyer charts are explicitly defined as guidelines.
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400 yards is "only" the distance at wick 90% of the firefight combat happened during WWII even if a rifle was capable of hitting at over 1.000 yards.
There are a lot of factors in reality.
A bullet is practically invisible. You can hear the sound of the weapon firing but the projectile is supersonic so it will hit you before ever heard the sound. You will have a better time seeing the seeing the flame from the firing weapon.
On the other hand a arrow is almost noiseless but travel at a speed well under that of the sound (I have found a reference to a speed of 350 feet second as a maximum with modern bows). If we use that speed for a enchanted bow we get that the arrow will be in flight for 1,5 seconds. Against a supposedly moving target. To fire at a distance of 500' the arrow would using a arched trajectory, not a (almost) straight line like a bullet.
In those conditions I have a hard time accepting the idea that it would be possible to use the sneak attack ability against people that, after the first attack, know the general direction from wick the attack is coming and have the time to see the arrow coming and react.
Probably I would give a chance to spot the arrow in time to react.
Something like: Fine object -16, seeing it from a distance of at least 60' to be able to react -6, favourable conditions (you know the general direction from wick it is coming) +2 = DC 19 to spot the arrow in time and not be sneak attacked.
Probably a bit too hard for a "real" situation, but at it would negate the effect of a magic item (the sniping goggles), reasonable, I think.
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Even in a desert spotting someone at 500' isn't so easy. The terrain, even if generally flat, is not a concrete slate. There are generally small dunes and depressions, the terrain is hotter than the air, so you have heat waves coming from it, even the position of the sun can make a great difference.
If the target is someone in a shiny metal armour you should have a bonus, if he is a guy in a drab light brown cloak it would be harder.
All said and done, my opinion is that Sniper goggles are overpowered as they change a major mechanism for a class.
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The Perception Skill talks about opposing Stealth, and noticing details - so it shouldn't ever really be required for noticing general stuff. Seeing a guy lobbing crossbow bolts at you from 400 yards away shouldn't require a roll at all... recognising his face would though... and if he was trying not to be seen, then that would require an opposed roll too...
I agree, but sneak attacking someone require hitting specific spots, not aiming for the guy silhouette and accepting any location on the body as a hit.
The attacker is trying to hit the target eye, hitting his hear because you can't see his features will not do the same kind of damage.
I will ask some guy that do wilderness photography as a job to get a better evaluation about real life sighting distance but I would not make spotting someone at 500' as automatic unless you know there will be someone there, but a -50 modifier is really excessive.
Just walked to the window to check, saw individual people crossing the street 10 blocks away, which in NYC is about half a mile, say 2500ft. That'd be a DC 250. Didn't even need to take 20.
I think 1/10ft makes sense for hearing or assuming some impariment to vision, like dungeon darkness or distractions - such as for a passive chance to happen to notice as opposed to activly looking. But no way that mod should be employed for an active check with a clear line of sight.
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Just walked to the window to check, saw individual people crossing the street 10 blocks away, which in NYC is about half a mile, say 2500ft. That'd be a DC 250. Didn't even need to take 20.
I think 1/10ft makes sense for hearing or assuming some impariment to vision, like dungeon darkness or distractions - such as for a passive chance to happen to notice as opposed to activly looking. But no way that mod should be employed for an active check with a clear line of sight.
You have seen every single guy or you have seen a mob?
To put it another way, you have seen that there was several people there, can you say with certainly how many they were? What they were doing (beside walking/standing still)?
And they will have seen you as easily while you were looking them?
So in the OP example the the sniper will easily see the group of people walking on the road. On the other hand the guys on the road will have a very hard time locating the sniper if he attempt to hide after every shot.
If he don't attempt to hide the spot check should be almost trivial, with a cumulative bonus for repeated attempts.
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In 3.5 vision perceptions and hearing were seperate skills, now they're one, but that means now not all modifiers apply to all uses. You have to make a judgement which modifiers apply to which kinds of senses and under which circumstances.Yes... it's just a pity they couldn't have simply listed which modifiers in the table are for which senses - it would hardly have put the word count over the top...
+1 to this!
500 feet are surely not a problem in open terrain.
If its in a forest or something similar its different.
From a rules perspective, there are two points:
-Range increments for shooting over your weapons distance, but you can get a distance weapon for this.
-Sneak attack, which depends on the state of the victim.
If the victim is on guard or actively looking for someone or something, there is a chance to eventually hear or spot an arrow, but surely with an higher DC as 19. It also has to watch the air for this.
If the victim is busy with something else first round is surprise round and sneak attack anyway. Then you can try to get cover and do an perception check.
What happens now is more interesting. Do you get more SA if you are not spotted but not sneaking? By RAW not. And if the victim is trying to hide or get cover, you need to make a perception check yourself or shoot against cover.
If its in a mob you get -4 or risk hitting someone else, unless you have the right feat.
I don´t see a problem there, even with sniper goggles.
How many other items are there giving other classes advantages?
Bonus damage only applies within 30 feet anyway.
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I don´t see a problem there, even with sniper goggles.
How many other items are there giving other classes advantages?
Bonus damage only applies within 30 feet anyway.
The leather strap attached to these bulbous lenses allows their wearer to fit them to his head. The wearer of these goggles can make ranged sneak attacks from any distance instead of the normal 30 feet. When making ranged sneak attacks within 30 feet, the wearer gains a +2 circumstance bonus on each sneak attack damage die.
The goggles allow sneak attacks at any range. That's the problem.
I liked the 1st ed (were they in 2ed too?) that listed ranges and what details you could make out at said range.
Maybe we need something similar.