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Originally, in my Archives, I sorted the Guided weapon property as being allowed for both melee and ranged weapons. This was because, in Pathfinder #10, it did not specify a weapon type. After discussing it with some friends though, I am wondering more and more if it was only meant to be with melee weapons.
1. The text mentions off-hand and two-handed weapons specifically.
2. The text only mentions replacing strength for attack and damage, not dexterity.
3. There is no example I can find in a Pathfinder book of it being used with a ranged weapon.
4. The only example I *could* find was it on a spiked chain, a melee weapon.
Based on the information above, what do people think? I am not asking if it is *balanced* equaling for ranged or melee, but if the text seems to indicate it should be just melee or for both.
Also, if James happens to stumble by and notice this, I'd love his input. :)
Can you post the actual text? I don't know that one.
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Guided
Source Pathfinder #10 22
Aura moderate evocation; CL 7th
Price +1 bonus
Description
A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed weapons or off-hand weapons — it always remains equal to the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes against the weapon’s nature and imparts a –2 penalty on all attack rolls made in this manner.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, spiritual weapon
To your list of arguments that it only applies to melee weapons, add this:
- The description states: "when striking blows with it".
I think the points you've raised, implies that it is only applicable to melee weapons. It is certainly written towards melee, but whether the developers had other situations in mind, I cannot tell.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Originally, in my Archives, I sorted the Guided weapon property as being allowed for both melee and ranged weapons. This was because, in Pathfinder #10, it did not specify a weapon type. After discussing it with some friends though, I am wondering more and more if it was only meant to be with melee weapons.
1. The text mentions off-hand and two-handed weapons specifically.
2. The text only mentions replacing strength for attack and damage, not dexterity.
3. There is no example I can find in a Pathfinder book of it being used with a ranged weapon.
4. The only example I *could* find was it on a spiked chain, a melee weapon.Based on the information above, what do people think? I am not asking if it is *balanced* equaling for ranged or melee, but if the text seems to indicate it should be just melee or for both.
Also, if James happens to stumble by and notice this, I'd love his input. :)
I know the Paizo people think it's broke, whether for melee or ranged. Why do I say this? Because they don't allow it for Pathfinder Society. That's usually a good indication of their opinions of whether something is balanced or not.
To address your question, I've always seen it as a melee only property. For all the reasons you listed, plus the very first line in the description. "Striking" implies a melee feel to me.
Yeah, it reads like a melee-only property to me. Would it break anything to put it on a ranged weapon? Not really, unless you're also using your wisdom for attack rolls, for the same reasons that a feat which lets you use Dex for damage is broken (it loads too much onto one stat while making Strength irrelevant).
Multi attack cleric 4 teh win!
Man you can make a broken build with this...
This might just be my opinion, but I'd let it be used for ranged weapons, too.
Guided shots make a lot of sense.
... to a lesser degree composite bows that have damage bonuses from strength.
When speaking about ranged weapons (in any balance/optimization/efficient sense) composite bows are the only real choice there is.
I can see a lot of archer builds that would benefit from the guided property. Rangers are obvious, as that would leave them with only wisdom and dexterity to be concerned with. A zen archer would take it (as would any melee monk if, it is made availiable) to gain higher AC and will save. A fighter might even drop str, which only gives him carrying capacity, but the choice between about a +5 will to save and some of the important skills, and a +1 enhancement is not a given.
This all makes a lot of assumptions at character creation about what equipment you will have, and for games starting at low levels, I would expect players to make characters that are more versatile. But as to whether it is a worthy ability for a ranged character, I have to say: Heck, yes.
Karui Kage: I hope you got your answers, before we begane this detour to balance, which you did decline.
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From what it seems like, RAW indicates it doesn't apply to either. That much I understood, it just doesn't flat-out say. By RAI, it seems to apply only to melee. I'll shoot an email to James and see if he can give me a more concrete answer just so I have a better way to sort it on my site. I'm leaning towards melee only, but want to be certain. Thanks for all the input! Feel free to discuss balance now ;)
You could definitely allow it in homebrewing, but in no way is it RAW to give a STR=>WIS bonus to a weapon that would solely use DEX bonuses.
Sling, javelin, throwing axe...
All of these get strength to damage by default.
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You could definitely allow it in homebrewing, but in no way is it RAW to give a STR=>WIS bonus to a weapon that would solely use DEX bonuses.
Sling, javelin, throwing axe...
All of these get strength to damage by default.
Sure, but I think the weirdness is that the text says you are replacing 'attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier', implying that it works with weapons that use strength for attack *and* damage.
I agree it's really wonky though, and I wish they had just put 'melee weapons' at the top for what it applied to. Or something.
I just had a thought. What would happen if you put this on a light weapon and used finesse with it? Would you use Wis for attacks? Dex?
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Originally, in my Archives, I sorted the Guided weapon property as being allowed for both melee and ranged weapons. This was because, in Pathfinder #10, it did not specify a weapon type. After discussing it with some friends though, I am wondering more and more if it was only meant to be with melee weapons.
1. The text mentions off-hand and two-handed weapons specifically.
2. The text only mentions replacing strength for attack and damage, not dexterity.
3. There is no example I can find in a Pathfinder book of it being used with a ranged weapon.
4. The only example I *could* find was it on a spiked chain, a melee weapon.Based on the information above, what do people think? I am not asking if it is *balanced* equaling for ranged or melee, but if the text seems to indicate it should be just melee or for both.
Also, if James happens to stumble by and notice this, I'd love his input. :)
Considering the weapon it was describing having the Guided property in the AP was a repeating crossbow, I would say no.
Guided
... A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier. ...
It's not your question, but this is ridiculously overpowered. +1 enhancement for a cleric or Druid (Amulet of Mighty Fists: Guided) to gain easily as much as 6 attack and damage before hitting 10th level?
Give you wanted to allow it, melee only makes the most sense. If ciretose is correct that it was applied to a crossbow, it seems it was intended for both. Though that would be particularly hilarious, since a crossbow doesn't ever use strength, unlike potentially every other ranged weapon (even regular bows get strength penalties to damage, all thrown weapons, slings, composite bows, etc.).
Sure, but I think the weirdness is that the text says you are replacing 'attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier', implying that it works with weapons that use strength for attack *and* damage.I agree it's really wonky though, and I wish they had just put 'melee weapons' at the top for what it applied to. Or something.
Hm... I read the "and" part as in an "and list" as opposed to you must replace both of them... otherwise it's crap with weapon finesse...
or creates a new error in windows your pick.
Considering the weapon it was describing having the Guided property in the AP was a repeating crossbow, I would say no.
Actually it wasn't a crossbow, it was a spiked chain. Though the picture of the guy with the repeating crossbow is right next to the sidebar for guided.
I just had a thought. What would happen if you put this on a light weapon and used finesse with it? Would you use Wis for attacks? Dex?
The description says if you don't use wisdom to hit and damage you apply a -2 to all attack rolls.
Weapon Finesse is an option to use Dex instead of Str, because it changes your Str to Wis you would then have the option to use your Dex or Wis for accuracy, but only your Wis for damage.
The way it is worded you would have to either use Wisdom for Attack/damage or Str for attack at -2/Str damage. If you used weapon finesse then it would be Dex to hit at -2/Str damage.
It's not your question, but this is ridiculously overpowered. +1 enhancement for a cleric or Druid (Amulet of Mighty Fists: Guided) to gain easily as much as 6 attack and damage before hitting 10th level?
This. I can only say that I strongly agree with Majuba here - the bonus is clearly a boon for the Monk (maybe initially it was intended to give him a helping hand, in order to create - finally - the 'mystic wizened guy barely able to stand but unstoppable in battle', and the whole 'not adjusted on tw and Off-hand' leads to that direction) , but it simply gives Clerics and Druids too much power IMHO.