Yo!
A long time ago, when the Pathfinder Monk was new, there were a number of threads that discussed various fixes people felt the class needed to make it a little more viable in combat.
One of the main suggestions that kept popping up was the inclusion of the monk's wisdom modifier in their combat mechanics and that is what I would like to focus on here.
There were lots of suggestions on the best way to do this:
- Incorporate the Intuitive Attack feat from the Book of Exalted deeds and make it a bonus feat for Monks. (It replaced Str. with Wis. for attacks)
- Just add the Wis. modifier to the Monk's attack/CMB/CMD/Damage
- Do the same as above but over levels to avoid 'dipping' from other Wis. based classes.
- Involve ki powers. Make the monk spend points to include Wis. temporarily.
What I am hoping to have here is a discussion on which option is the best in terms of playability, ease, and relative balance. Should those of us who agree with this idea look to replace Str. with Wis.? or add it? and do we do it to just attack rolls? damage? or both?
Here, I'll even start with my idea, a feat:
INTUITIVE ATTACK
You use clarity of mind and keen awareness to deliver your strikes rather than brute force.
Prerequisites: Wis 15, base attack +3,
Benefit: When making a melee attack, you may use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
Special: When wielding a weapon for which you have the Weapon Focus feat, this feat allows you to add your Wisdom modifier to attack rolls with that weapon.
Special: A monk may gain Intuitive attack as a bonus feat at 1st level. A monk with this feat may spend 1 ki point as a swift action to add her Wisdom modifier to damage rolls made with her unarmed strike or special monk weapons.
What do you think?
The Monk may or may not be underpowered at this time, but I object strenuously to governing all of a character's capabilities on a single ability score. Allowing Monks to replace Dexterity and Strength with Wisdom is as bad as allowing a finesse Fighter or Rogue to use Dexterity for everything. It makes a single +6 item too good.
That's why I propose Intelligence to AC and melee damage for finesse characters and Charisma for non-Monk ki pools. It encourages characters to put ability score increases in other abilities and provides mechanical support for ability scores that see little use outside of spellcasting.
AD&D required stringent ability score requirements for characters like Monks and Paladins.
I concede that this is also a serious issue with spellcasters who are typically based on a single ability score-- and it's one of the factors that I think contributes to the vast power disparity between spellcasters and other characters.
Well, the Zen Archer Monk took a step in that direction, having its attacks rolls based upon wisdom. But I see how it would be nice to introduce wisdom to the class as a whole for attack rolls. Hrmm.
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The Monk may or may not be underpowered at this time, but I object strenuously to governing all of a character's capabilities on a single ability score. Allowing Monks to replace Dexterity and Strength with Wisdom is as bad as allowing a finesse Fighter or Rogue to use Dexterity for everything. It makes a single +6 item too good.
That's why I propose Intelligence to AC and melee damage for finesse characters and Charisma for non-Monk ki pools. It encourages characters to put ability score increases in other abilities and provides mechanical support for ability scores that see little use outside of spellcasting.
AD&D required stringent ability score requirements for characters like Monks and Paladins.
I concede that this is also a serious issue with spellcasters who are typically based on a single ability score-- and it's one of the factors that I think contributes to the vast power disparity between spellcasters and other characters.
I am the complete opposite. I think giving them Wisdom to attack rolls and AC in place of Strength/Dexterity is completely balanced with regular Strength or Dexterity based characters. It takes them from needing three stats to two.
I'm flabbergasted at your solution, probably because I don't understand your proposal for Intelligence to AC. Is it a feat solution, and does it replace instead of add to the scores? It seems like it overly favors wizards.
I must point out that what AD&D required is not mechanically relevant to 3.X, due to the difference in importance and effect of ability scores. Plus, minimum requirements are silly to me.
No argument about caster disparity however. :)
Here, I'll even start with my idea, a feat:
INTUITIVE ATTACK
You use clarity of mind and keen awareness to deliver your strikes rather than brute force.
Prerequisites: Wis 15, base attack +3,
Benefit: When making a melee attack, you may use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
Special: When wielding a weapon for which you have the Weapon Focus feat, this feat allows you to add your Wisdom modifier to attack rolls with that weapon.
Special: A monk may gain Intuitive attack as a bonus feat at 1st level. A monk with this feat may spend 1 ki point as a swift action to add her Wisdom modifier to damage rolls made with her unarmed strike or special monk weapons.What do you think?
Minor point, the wording of 'when making a melee attack' renders the Special text redundant. Any attack you make with a weapon is a melee attack. Did you mean for the first line to be 'unarmed strike' instead of 'melee attack'? Or is the Special ability for those who want to use Wisdom with ranged attacks?
I am the complete opposite. I think giving them Wisdom to attack rolls and AC in place of Strength/Dexterity is completely balanced with regular Strength or Dexterity based characters. It takes them from needing three stats to two.
Armor Class, Will Saves, ki pool. I'll admit, I don't think moving attack roll from Strength to Wisdom is any worse than moving it from Strength to Dexterity. But when you get attack, damage, AC, a saving throw, and a class feature on a single stat, you're breaking the idea behind having different stats in the first place.
I'm flabbergasted at your solution, probably because I don't understand your proposal for Intelligence to AC. Is it a feat solution, and does it replace instead of add to the scores? It seems like it overly favors wizards.
I'm suggesting that it add, similar to the Duelist, for the price of three feats. (Finesse, Expertise, and X.) It would favor Wizards somewhat, but no more so than a one-level dip in Monk favors Clerics and Druids.
I must point out that what AD&D required is not mechanically relevant to 3.X, due to the difference in importance and effect of ability scores. Plus, minimum requirements are silly to me.
Bear with me, here. I'm not suggesting that the AD&D mechanic is relevant to the mechanical discussion we're having, but that the design philosophy behind it is. Monks were required to spread their stats out as a balancing factor. Monks should not be allowed, now, to pile everything on one stat to evade this issue.
20, 10, 10, 10, 8, 8 is not what an optimized character should look like, in any class. The fact that it is tolerated in casters-- who are already overwhelming-- does not mean that it should be allowed to spread further.
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20, 10, 10, 10, 8, 8 is not what an optimized character should look like, in any class. The fact that it is tolerated in casters-- who are already overwhelming-- does not mean that it should be allowed to spread further.
Actually, I think that spread would be great fun to DM for. I know of all sorts of monsters to throw at that character. >:)
I'm actually a little torn between making all characters rely on one stat versus making them rely on all stats. I'm going to be testing out using Charisma for Will saves in the next game I run to see how it turns out. My only point was that there are plenty of characters who only use Strength to get by in melee, so I'd like to give a little to Dexterity/Wisdom characters as well.
I object strenuously to governing all of a character's capabilities on a single ability score.
I am in full agreement with you here actually. Making all aspects of a character dependant on one stat smacks of.. cheesiness? munchkinism? something like that.
However, I don't think this is the case here. This is about shoring up what many believe to be a shortcoming of the monk class (a failure to hit or deal adequate damage) with something that matches them flavour-wise (in a zen-like 'be the strike' kind of way).
Minor point, the wording of 'when making a melee attack' renders the Special text redundant. Any attack you make with a weapon is a melee attack. Did you mean for the first line to be 'unarmed strike' instead of 'melee attack'? Or is the Special ability for those who want to use Wisdom with ranged attacks?
I'm not quite sure I see the redundancy. Not every attack made with a weapon is a melee attack. The idea here is that it works with melee attacks and if you have Weapon Focus for that weapon, it improves it further.
Would it be better if it said "When wielding a melee weapon for which you have Weapon Focus..."?
Also! I can't edit the original post any more but the last line should state that a monk who spends a ki point gets the bonus to damage for 1 round.
Otherwise, that 1 ki point would be the best one the monk ever spent!
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I'm not quite sure I see the redundancy. Not every attack made with a weapon is a melee attack.
But every attack with a melee weapon is a melee attack. So the only weapons that the Special ability covers are ranged weapons. Unless you're meaning that combat maneuvers with a melee weapon are not melee attacks?
With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet.
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon...
Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet).
The idea here is that it works with melee attacks and if you have Weapon Focus for that weapon, it improves it further.
How does it improve? Do you add your Wisdom bonus twice for weapons you have the Weapon Focus in?
But every attack with a melee weapon is a melee attack. So the only weapons that the Special ability covers are ranged weapons. Unless you're meaning that combat maneuvers with a melee weapon are not melee attacks?
Ahh... now I gotcha. So the wording should make it clear that the Weapon Focus bonus only works with melee weapons.
How does it improve? Do you add your Wisdom bonus twice for weapons you have the Weapon Focus in?
Without Weapon Focus, you can replace your Str. modifier with your Wis. modifier on attack rolls. With Weapon Focus, you can ADD your Wis. modifier to Str. modifier to attack rolls.
I see now that should be made more clear as well.
Thank-you.
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Not a fan really of Feats that work off of Class Features, but I do wish there where more Wis based combat (& noncombat) options.
So what about if the Feat replaced Str for attacks normally, added to Str for melee attacks with WF, and allowed for other Wis based Feats in a chain as one feat? I do think they should be willpower, defensive, perceptive, and possibly mystic in nature.
A second Feat might allow you to reroll a failed perception roll vs ambush, and give the option of allowing you to use Wis for Init rather than Dex.
A 3rd might let you reduce concealment from effects that apply within 5ft like most fog effects, (but still suffer full effects beyond 5ft).
Another might let you apply Wis on place of a number of Dex, Int, or Cha skills , (maybe = 1/2 Wis Mod, +1/5 levels).
Yet another migjt grant you a bonus to damage against certain creatures immune to Crits normally, and allow you to crit them with Imp Crit attacks.
Things of that nature. I do not think they should be Monk only, Monk bonus Feats, or related to single class Class Features though. A Ftr that specializes in Boxing, a Clc, a Monk, or anyone with decent Wis should get mostly the same benefit, I think.
In AD&D, Monks got to add half their level to damage with weapons. Meant they were the only characters for whom a crossbow was worth considering.
I wouldn't be opposed to allowing them to add their Wisdom bonus to damage as long as their attack rolls still relied on Strength or Dexterity. Relying on Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom seems like an adequate spread of ability scores.
While I do want there to be more viability for wisdom based monks (old masters, esoteric one-finger nerve strikers, etc), I want that flavor to have it's limits, within reason. All melee weapons being used with this feat seems off. Weapon finesse is flavored by the fact that it only works with finesse weapons. I think something similar should happen with this feat.
The weapon focus tie-in doesn't need to exist. If you are swapping a mediocre ability for the one you are dumping the most points into, that's enough of a feat. It could be a second string feat on it's own, although it might be bit strong.
While I do want there to be more viability for wisdom based monks (old masters, esoteric one-finger nerve strikers, etc), I want that flavor to have it's limits, within reason. All melee weapons being used with this feat seems off. Weapon finesse is flavored by the fact that it only works with finesse weapons. I think something similar should happen with this feat.
Interesting point. What class or group of weapons do you think fit best?
Interesting point. What class or group of weapons do you think fit best?While I do want there to be more viability for wisdom based monks (old masters, esoteric one-finger nerve strikers, etc), I want that flavor to have it's limits, within reason. All melee weapons being used with this feat seems off. Weapon finesse is flavored by the fact that it only works with finesse weapons. I think something similar should happen with this feat.
Good question. This is a question that is really the meat of the feat. How you answer it will depend on how you see wisdom substituting for Dex and/or Str. My vote would be for unarmed strikes, improvised weapons, and possibly finesse weapons, though that might be too much like weapon finesse already.
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I would suggest one handed maces and hammers, a few monk weapons, mostly the ones based on common farm tools, longswords and those with a tie to law, order, or common sense. But as Wisdom pertanes to common sense, understanding mysteries, and perception, the weapon itself is little importance as much as the wisdom to use it, so I thonk keep ythe WF and let it be any weapon that you can use well enough.
I would say the 'monk weapons', i.e., those that can be used with a flurry of strikes.
Well,
The original Intuitive Attack feat from the 3.5 BoED said it only worked with simple weapons and natural attacks (which I assume they intended to include a monk's unarmed strike).
We could use that and say a monk with the feat can also include monk special weapons.
Yeah?
I'd allow it for the monk weapons group, including unarmed strike. There should be an additional feat that allows the Monk to pick an extra weapon group that it applies to.