APG Specialist Druids and Wildshape

[Samurai]

I had a question about the Specialist Druid types in the APG... each of them trades power for power, in generally equal X for Y trades, with the base Druid. However, they then mostly take an extra hit on Wildshaping, gaining it 2 levels later and always being counted as a Druid 2 levels lower. This means that the specialist Druid can never gain the Druid capstone ability, unlimited Wildshaping. Given that they do not get a net gain in power for their other abilities (some might even argue that they are much more specialized than a regular Druid and thus their powers a bit less useful), why was this done? Was it to preserve the original Druid's niche by making them better than their specialist counterparts?

As a player of a Druid, I was disappointed by this removal of the capstone power and general weakening of their wildshaping with nothing given in return, so I stuck with the base version.

[Phage]

At level 20, even with a 2 level penalty you can Wild Shape 8 times a day, with each lasting 18 hours each. Even if you never rested, that gives you a total of 6 straight days in Wild Shape.

Sure it isn't at will, but that seems sufficient for classes that are likely not focusing purely on Wild Shape, but instead alternative class features.

Multiple of the APG classes don't incur any WS penalties and offer other bonuses, like Blight Duid.

I do agree that some of the abilities and classes could use some remaking, but honestly Wild Shape is really low on the totem pole for that one.

[Samurai]

Now that I have Wild armor, I'm wildshaping all the time. I used it 5 times in the session tonight. It's not just a matter of length of time, but about choosing a form that suits the moment. If I need to fly to get somewhere quickly or because I got pushed off a cliff, I'll change into an air elemental. If I need to pound something or earth glide, I become an earth elemental. If I want to do stealthy recon, maybe I'll become an eagle or a rat. When someone dives overboard during a battle on board a ship, I dove after them, changing into a shark when I hit the water. Sometimes I'm only in a form for a few minutes because I need 1 particular ability of that shape.

Still, yes, 8 by the end is a lot (though 1 less all the way through your career is more painful), but the point is, why reduce it at all? There just doesn't seem to be any reason to. Their other powers are traded 1 for 1, so what do they get in return for a weakened core Druid ability and no capstone power? It's like a Paladin variant that had Lay on Hands at 2 levels lower, for no rhyme or reason...

[wynterknight]

I'd recommend doing a search through these threads, because this topic has come up a number of times so far. If I remember correctly, you do eventually gain unlimited wild shaping with the animal totem variants, but only with your totem form, it's just that you're treated as 2 levels lower for your non-totem forms. Personally, I find it to be kind of clunkily written (not sure "clunkily" is a word, but oh well), and the terrain-based druids that take a hit don't seem to gain anything worth giving it up, I agree--although the plains and urban druids might work, but their play style would be totally different. I still prefer the base druid, myself.

[Cartigan]

Samurai wrote:

Now that I have Wild armor, I'm wildshaping all the time. I used it 5 times in the session tonight. It's not just a matter of length of time, but about choosing a form that suits the moment. If I need to fly to get somewhere quickly or because I got pushed off a cliff, I'll change into an air elemental. If I need to pound something or earth glide, I become an earth elemental. If I want to do stealthy recon, maybe I'll become an eagle or a rat. When someone dives overboard during a battle on board a ship, I dove after them, changing into a shark when I hit the water. Sometimes I'm only in a form for a few minutes because I need 1 particular ability of that shape.

Yeah, I don't think most people do that.

[LazarX]

The archetypes aren't Druids, they're shamans who just happen to be built on the Druid chassis. The various archetypes aren't neccessarily focused on wildshaping, they're different roleplaying options and they can be just as effective in different ways. Some like the Eagle are obviously meant to focus more on casting as opposed to the bear.

Then again, no class is for everyone.