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Okay, it seems that my Google-voodoo was not sufficient to locate any threads that directly address my question, so I'll put it here. If you know of any thread(s) that address this issue, please feel free to point 'em out.
While looking over the item creation rules for wondrous items in the PFRPG Core Book, I noticed the line that states "The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item" [pg 553]. So, if I plan to create -say- an "Amulet of Protection from Evil," and I happen to have a shiny amulet worth 1500gp, would the value of that amulet help to offset the enchantment cost, or would it be an unnecessarily pricey base item?
From a DM standpoint, I would tend to rule in favor of this idea; I also like using Power Components as part of my treasures, but I'm currently a lowly player and have to convince my DM that it's reasonable.
Thanks in advance for you help and patience.
Raw it works. There's no mention of what the materials have to be, so if you have your great aunt matilda's 2000gp wedding ring you can enchant it as a ring of protection +1
I go with the Material Components are a separated Cost. This would be true of Master Work Costs, Item costs, and Spell Component Costs.
Magic Item Retail Cost + Material Costs.
Magic Item Creation Cost + Material Costs.
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So if you want to make the Shiny amulet worth 1500 gold into a magic item that is destroyed when the last charge is used up. Well, you can, but I would not think it would be a very smart thing to do.
I would not let you count that 1500 gold as part of the creation cost. I would let you sale the magic item, for 1500 more, as it does have value as a rare gem since it is a Material Cost.
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Okay, it seems that my Google-voodoo was not sufficient to locate any threads that directly address my question, so I'll put it here. If you know of any thread(s) that address this issue, please feel free to point 'em out.
While looking over the item creation rules for wondrous items in the PFRPG Core Book, I noticed the line that states "The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the item" [pg 553]. So, if I plan to create -say- an "Amulet of Protection from Evil," and I happen to have a shiny amulet worth 1500gp, would the value of that amulet help to offset the enchantment cost, or would it be an unnecessarily pricey base item?
From a DM standpoint, I would tend to rule in favor of this idea; I also like using Power Components as part of my treasures, but I'm currently a lowly player and have to convince my DM that it's reasonable.
Thanks in advance for you help and patience.
I'd meet you halfway, allowing to deduct the price of the materials from a portion of the price of the magical item without paying for 100% of it. As a rule of thumb, I'd be incline to allow 50% of its total price.
I don't think aunty Mathilda's 2000 gp ring should turn into a ring of protection +1 for free, but it should be an appropriate candidate for a ring of counterspell (4000 gp), knocking 2000 gp off the bill.
'findel
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I think Laurefindel's on the right track; the rules on creating magical weapons and armor all indicate that the masterwork costs are tallied in separately from the enchantment cost, but the entry for wondrous items specifically says that the cost of the materials are figured in to the enchantment cost. Maybe a reasonable compromise would be to apply 1/2 the amulet's market value to the "cost to create," otherwise I might as well sell the amulet [which should net around 750gp]. . . which accomplishes the exact same thing; 750gp that doesn't come directly out of my pocket.
I think maybe it'd save a lot of hassle to simply use the amulet as the base for the item and consider 750gp of the "cost to create" already accounted for.
Also, I wasn't thinking of making a charged item. I was thinking of making it a continuous-use item, like a ring of protection or necklace of adaptation. I'll make a charged "Token of Protection from Evil" out of that horseshoe the paladin's mount threw.
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The item you are thinking of creating is what is unreasonable an amulet of Protection vs Evil simply does not work via the standard costing - its far too good. I think any sensible DM will swiftly recognize this, its not quite a true strike item level of cheese, but its certainly is far too powerful as the standard mechanics would have it priced. I know you only mention it as a possibility, but even so.
As a DM I would certainly allow you to use an expensive item as part of the cost, but I would not let you reduce crafting time because of it. A 1000gp ring would cost 1000gp to make into a ring of protection +1, but would still take 2 days to enchant. Otherwise you could turn diamond tiaras into +6 Headbands of Intellect in a fraction of the time, etc.
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I would not let you count that 1500 gold as part of the creation cost. I would let you sale the magic item, for 1500 more, as it does have value as a rare gem since it is a Material Cost.
Is there any particular reason for this?
Since you could sell the jewelry/gems for full value, there's no difference from a balance point of view, and personally I think it's a lot more flavorful to use the masterfully crafted necklace worth 1,500gp as part of the cost than just selling it and buying 1,500gp worth of generic arcane components.
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would the value of that amulet help to offset the enchantment cost, or would it be an unnecessarily pricey base item?
My understanding of magic item creation is that the components are consumed and/or imbued into the item, and include the item that then then becomes magical, such as the amulet. However, while not listed out for abstraction (no list of eye of newt, fart of beetle, etc.), it is a specific list to the creator. Using the the 1500gp item as base might substitute for the generic amulet that would become magical on the "standard list," but the other stuff is still needed. So, it might provided credit, and the end result might have a different market value if going to that level of detail.
Alternatively, you sell the existing one and buy the necessary components and it's a done deal.
The places where it matters are when you are away from a market or have ingame/roleplaying reasons to use the item in question. Otherwise, it generally should be moot.
I would not let you count that 1500 gold as part of the creation cost. I would let you sale the magic item, for 1500 more, as it does have value as a rare gem since it is a Material Cost.Is there any particular reason for this?
Fear of abusive players who would use uncle Chuck's 2000 gp poking stick, turn it into a wand of whatever, knock off 2000 gp off the final price, expand all the charges and still be left with a 2000 gp poking stick?
'findel
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Fear of abusive players who would use uncle Chuck's 2000 gp poking stick, turn it into a wand of whatever, knock off 2000 gp off the final price, expand all the charges and still be left with a 2000 gp poking stick?
Of course, with charged items, you could go the course of the poking stick getting progressively less shiney as the charges are used up, until the last one goes and the stick is still worth bupkiss... ;)
What I've done in the past is this.
I allow the players to collect items along their travels that can be used in their enchanting. So, for example, if they kill a Bullet, and want to take time harvesting organs/teeth/etc, then I apply a market value to those components. That is then allowed to be used in item creation. However, I usually only let components gathered in this way account for 50% to 70% of the item creation.
Now, if they find a magical item that's very similar, I will let it be more. For example, a +1 mithral dagger being used to create a +2 mithral long sword, well, I don't mind letting the wizard add some mithral to the cost and recraft the dagger as a longsword and gain full value of the mithral dagger towards the +2 mithral longsword.
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Of course, with charged items, you could go the course of the poking stick getting progressively less shiney as the charges are used up, until the last one goes and the stick is still worth bupkiss... ;)
Yep, I'd go so far as to say such items disintegrate entirely as the final charge is used, except for the fact I really like the possibility of re-enchanting them. Seems to me that the best way of handling this is to have the use of charges consume the valuable materials of the item, gradually replacing them with some base metal, only to have the re-enchantment ritual restore it to its former glory.
I would not let you count that 1500 gold as part of the creation cost. I would let you sale the magic item, for 1500 more, as it does have value as a rare gem since it is a Material Cost.Is there any particular reason for this?
Since you could sell the jewelry/gems for full value, there's no difference from a balance point of view, and personally I think it's a lot more flavorful to use the masterfully crafted necklace worth 1,500gp as part of the cost than just selling it and buying 1,500gp worth of generic arcane components.
The reason is, game balance, and game consistancy.
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Materal Costs are for : The items orgianl cost, Master Work costs, and Spell Component costs.
Magic Costs: The magic items enchantment value.
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(example:Now when you enchant a Magic weapon or Armor = The Cost of the Armor, and the Masterwork cost is treated as a sperart cost. This is its mundain cost, and for what the item would sale for if you did not know it was magic.)
Now the neckless in the example is 1,500 gold. On the other hand, the neckless could be made out of 10 gold.
If the players find the neckless, and do not know that it is magical = Then they will see the materal value of the item (which is sperate from its magical worth)
If the player find the neckless, and know that it is magical = Then they will see the materal value of the item, and the magical value that item will have.
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When figuring up magic items, it is ually best to keep the magic effect math sperated from the meateral value. This is due to how retail is twice to cost to create. How magic cost gets hit by many multi-plyers, which change to end magic cost.
Consistancy = See Craft Construct, See Craft Arms and Armor. = Both keep the items Materal Value sperated from the magical crafting cost. They treate the materal value as a sperate cost that is added (separately) to both the item Creation cost and Retail Price.
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Anyway to each his own, i just thing it is a bad habit to get into in the long run.