Couldn't have said it better myself Abraham and Alorha. Thanks.
I see.
It's telling you I'm coming.
It's telling you I'm going to backstab you.
It's doing this soon enough that you can SHOUT A WARNING before I actually do it.
It's showing you how to dodge my attacks.
It's showing you how to evade my spells.
And despite the fact you can't actually learn any of that about me, because I'm Mind Blanked and that's a divination spell, it works perfectly.
Ooooo-kay. Continue on with your house rule. No more convincing needed, I guess. I'd love to know how MoP and FOresight went from gathering information on the future and parties coming into conflict with you, to just 'communication' spells, but on second thought, I don't want to know.
==Aelryinth
I see.
It's telling you I'm coming.
It's telling you I'm going to backstab you.
It's doing this soon enough that you can SHOUT A WARNING before I actually do it.
It's showing you how to dodge my attacks.
It's showing you how to evade my spells.And despite the fact you can't actually learn any of that about me, because I'm Mind Blanked and that's a divination spell, it works perfectly.
Ooooo-kay. Continue on with your house rule. No more convincing needed, I guess. I'd love to know how MoP and FOresight went from gathering information on the future and parties coming into conflict with you, to just 'communication' spells, but on second thought, I don't want to know.
==Aelryinth
You don't see.
It's telling me something is coming.
It's telling me I'm going to be backstabbed.
It's doing this soon enough that I can SHOUT A WARNING before the event takes place.
It's showing me how to dodge an attack.
It's showing me how to evade a spell.
I've learned nothing about you even though the spell has protected me.
By all means, continue on with your house rule.
==Ravingdork
If the spell lets you know that danger is coming, and BoB just happens to be the source then it is getting the info about what Bob's actions are. Just because it does not tell you exactly what Bob is up to does not mean no information is being gathered by the spell.
If the spell could not gain the info then it could not pass it to you. <--I think that is a reasonable statement.The issue now is that MoP is a divination spell, and mind blank says no divination spells are allowed to gather info on Bob. That means Bob can get the jump on you unless you have other means of detecting him.
Wow. Am I really alone in this?
The difference between me and you guys is that you see Moment of Prescience as an information gathering spell, whereas I don't. I see it strictly as a defensive spell. It imparts no special information to me about Bob. It merely lets me avoid danger.
Yes you are alone. :)
You can not know to take a precaution unless you receive information to do so. <-----I think this is reasonable
You get the info from the spell<-----I think this is reasonable
The spell at the very least lets you know someone is about to attack you. That someone happens to be Bob. The spell would have to be able to predict Bob's actions. If it can't then it can't warn you about what Bob is about to do. <---I think this is reasonableHow can it predict Bob's actions if there is no way to get any information on Bob through a divination spell?
I take a non-answer to these as evidence as the thread has ended in favor of mind blank.
Developer
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How can it predict Bob's actions if there is no way to get any information on Bob through a divination spell?
Simple, the spell doesn't predict Bob's actions. That's what we've been saying.
Nothing about Moment of Prescience says anything about transmitting information about the attacker. Nothing, not a word. Every mention of information is 100% inserted by you. You say it must know about Bob, that it's warning you about Bob. It isn't. It never says it is warning you about anything . Warning is never mentioned in moment of presience. You just know what to do without knowing why. If Bob were invisible (he would be cloaked from True Seeing and similar things) you would not know why you dodged. You would not necessarily know in character that you were still under attack. You would not know what reason your head moved just precisely to the right, it just would. Point to where in the spell description you get information - any information.
Everything your reading is outside of the text of the spell. If this is how you see it working, that's your business, but do not pretend the text says things it does not.
Here's the MoP:
School divination; Level sorcerer/wizard 8
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 hour/level or until discharged
This spell grants you a sixth sense. Once during the spell's duration, you may choose to use its effect. This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, combat maneuver check, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw. Alternatively, you can apply the insight bonus to your AC against a single attack (even if flat-footed). Activating the effect doesn't take an action; you can even activate it on another character's turn. You must choose to use the moment of prescience before you make the roll it is to modify. Once used, the spell ends. You can't have more than one moment of prescience active on you at the same time.
For Foresight, the spell actually does say you get warnings. This is at least closer to your reading. I can see how someone would read this as gathering information. I do not, though. The spell does not care about the danger, nor do you learn anything. There is no information gained for the character. Nothing learned. Just vague impressions of a direction to move.
Perhaps the problem is line drawing. How far does the prohibition extend. If Bob writes a message in Goblin... let's say it's a cake recipe - it has nothing to do with him save that he wrote it - can Comprehend Languages translate it? Is this revealing information about Bob?
It certainly gives you information about something he's done. I don't think this information is about Bob, though.
Now if you were to cast legend lore, you could not learn that Bob wrote this recipe.
The first bit of information gained is about the recipe, the second would be about Bob. So, too with Foresight, you learn about the attack, not about Bob. It does not matter who is attacking you for the spell, and you may not necessarily have any clue. The spell does not care. It does not care about Bob. That's what's key. Bob is not important, just the attack. And the attack, the the cake recipe, is not really about Bob.
How can it predict Bob's actions if there is no way to get any information on Bob through a divination spell?
Simple, the spell doesn't predict Bob's actions. That's what we've been saying.
Nothing about Moment of Prescience says anything about transmitting information about the attacker. Nothing, not a word. Every mention of information is 100% inserted by you. You say it must know about Bob, that it's warning you about Bob. It isn't. It never says it is warning you about anything . Warning is never mentioned in moment of presience. You just know what to do without knowing why. If Bob were invisible (he would be cloaked from True Seeing and similar things) you would not know why you dodged. You would not necessarily know in character that you were still under attack. You would not know what reason your head moved just precisely to the right, it just would. Point to where in the spell description you get information - any information.
Everything your reading is outside of the text of the spell. If this is how you see it working, that's your business, but do not pretend the text says things it does not.
Here's the MoP:
** spoiler omitted **...
I have not pretended anything. RAW the spell does not deliver information, but you can know to move.
Pathfinder did not define insight bonus but 3.5 did.
Insight Bonus
An insight bonus improves performance of a given activity by granting the character an almost precognitive knowledge of what might occur. Multiple insight bonuses on the same character or object do not stack. Only the highest insight bonus applies.
Now of course I have to show that the insight bonus works the same way in pathfinder.
Combat Precognition (Su): Your insight into the future grants you an advantage in combat. At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, you gain a +1 insight bonus on initiative checks.
True StrikeSchool divination; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, F (small wooden replica of an archery target)
Range personal
Target you
Duration see text
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.
I think that would suffice.
I just defeated my own argument after writing a long post. I agree that MoP works against Mind Blank. I have erased the wall of text. Suffice it to say you don't need to sense Bob in order to avoid him.
edit: changed to make more sense
I feel your pain. I've done that a few times this week already. We happy few who delve deep within the RAW, our sanity taken to its limits, even we are not perfect.I just defeated my own argument after writing a long post.
To comprehend enough to know you are ignorant is a blessing over being so ignorant that you don't know you need to learn.
It grows character and intelligence to be able to find your own error and admit it and grow pass it.
I see.
It's telling you I'm coming.
It's telling you I'm going to backstab you.
It's doing this soon enough that you can SHOUT A WARNING before I actually do it.
It's showing you how to dodge my attacks.
It's showing you how to evade my spells.And despite the fact you can't actually learn any of that about me, because I'm Mind Blanked and that's a divination spell, it works perfectly.
Ooooo-kay. Continue on with your house rule. No more convincing needed, I guess. I'd love to know how MoP and FOresight went from gathering information on the future and parties coming into conflict with you, to just 'communication' spells, but on second thought, I don't want to know.
==Aelryinth
You don't see.
It's telling me something is coming.
It's telling me I'm going to be backstabbed.
It's doing this soon enough that I can SHOUT A WARNING before the event takes place.
It's showing me how to dodge an attack.
It's showing me how to evade a spell.I've learned nothing about you even though the spell has protected me.
By all means, continue on with your house rule.
==Ravingdork
I see fine.
That something is what the spell CANNOT SENSE.
To be backstabbed, you must be backstabbed by SOMETHING...which the spell cannot sense.
It's effectively reading the future by doing this before an event that something it cannot sense is executing (and thus presumably could change their mind)...and if reading the future isn't gathering information I don't know what is.
It's showing you how to dodge an attack it cannot see coming.
It's showing you how to evade a spell it cannot sense being cast, because it cannot sense the caster or anything he does.
By all means, continue on with YOUR house rule.
===Aelryinth
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Developer
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I see fine.That something is what the spell CANNOT SENSE.
You're talking as if the spell is a creature, warning you of danger. It is not. Nor is this reading supported anywhere in the text.
To be backstabbed, you must be backstabbed by SOMETHING...which the spell cannot sense.
I agree. The spell cannot sense Bob. It does not need to sense the backstabber to function. The spell does not let you know there is a male human wizard/rogue/arcane trickster armed with a sword of subtlety coming up from your left. The spell does not need to know anything. The spell is not Navi the fairy telling me to listen. The spell is giving a bonus. It gives this bonus because something unfortunate would happen. It does not need any information about the unfortunate something. The text does not even mention knowledge. No information.
It's effectively reading the future by doing this before an event that something it cannot sense is executing (and thus presumably could change their mind)...and if reading the future isn't gathering information I don't know what is.
But is that future about Bob or about you?
What if Bob pushed a boulder off a cliff, could I dodge it with MoP?What if Bob gave his underlings the weapons and orders to kill me?
What if Bob spread rumors about me that lead an irate passerby to throw a rock?
And, as in my previous example - what if Bob wrote a message in a language I can't read and I cast comprehend languages?
Which of these stop being about Bob and start being about the other people involved? You've started a line of reasoning that stops all of these because Bob is the prime mover in each scenario... just like he is if he puts a sword in my back himself.
It's showing you how to dodge an attack it cannot see coming.
Give me this in the RAW.
It's showing you how to evade a spell it cannot sense being cast, because it cannot sense the caster or anything he does.
Show me where it's written.
The spell isn't telling me anything about the prime mover, though. It's not telling anything. It's not showing anything. It's not an entity and does not gain information.
By all means, continue on with YOUR house rule.
Your complete lack of textual support seems to put you on the house rule end of things. We're the only ones dealing with the spell as it is written. If you want to have your players summon Navi the fairy to tell their future, that's your business. The spell does not do that. It is not my friend. We do not talk over beers.
I see.
It's telling you I'm coming.
It's telling you I'm going to backstab you.
It's doing this soon enough that you can SHOUT A WARNING before I actually do it.
It's showing you how to dodge my attacks.
It's showing you how to evade my spells.And despite the fact you can't actually learn any of that about me, because I'm Mind Blanked and that's a divination spell, it works perfectly.
Ooooo-kay. Continue on with your house rule. No more convincing needed, I guess. I'd love to know how MoP and FOresight went from gathering information on the future and parties coming into conflict with you, to just 'communication' spells, but on second thought, I don't want to know.
==Aelryinth
You don't see.
It's telling me something is coming.
It's telling me I'm going to be backstabbed.
It's doing this soon enough that I can SHOUT A WARNING before the event takes place.
It's showing me how to dodge an attack.
It's showing me how to evade a spell.I've learned nothing about you even though the spell has protected me.
By all means, continue on with your house rule.
==Ravingdork
I see fine.
That something is what the spell CANNOT SENSE.
To be backstabbed, you must be backstabbed by SOMETHING...which the spell cannot sense.
It's effectively reading the future by doing this before an event that something it cannot sense is executing (and thus presumably could change their mind)...and if reading the future isn't gathering information I don't know what is.
It's showing you how to dodge an attack it cannot see coming.
It's showing you how to evade a spell it cannot sense being cast, because it cannot sense the caster or anything he does.
By all means, continue on with YOUR house rule.===Aelryinth
The spell can not tell me that Bob stabbed me due to MB, but it can show me a vision(flavor)of me dead maybe a second before I die. That way I am the subject of the spell, which is similar to the commune idea I used to find the chain-binder in the other thread.
Sorry for the stupid question but: can a Feather Token Bird be used to deliver a message to a Mind Blanked creature? RAW, I mean. I know it's a very cheap item, but it's a Conjuration aura. In the same lines, could an Animal Messenger?