I am just wondering if Traps in Pathfinder have become obsolete.
A Level 12 rogue, just an average rogue with skills and abilities he already gets, will have this in Disable Device for traps....
+6 Dex Bonus
+12 Ranks
+3 Trained Skill
+2 Masterwork Tools
+6 Trapfinding
So, a Rogue who doesn't even specialize in traps gets a +28 to disarming traps. The MAXIMUM trap DC for a trap is 34. Nothing bad can happen to the rogue at this point unless some sort of circumstance penalty is applied.
A rogue blows a single feat Skill Focus (Disarm) will get +6 to this roll (So a total of +34), which would cover most circumstance bonuses which would apply.
So a rogue at this point can disarm ANY CR of trap in the game. Also, almost every player I know chooses Skill Focus (Perception)... so for a rogue to percieve the trap it's going to be...
+2 Wis Bonus
+12 Ranks
+3 Trained skill
+6 Trapfinding
+2 Racial Mod (it's common enough)
+6 Skill Focus
So +31 to spot any trap.
This would make it appear that a very Average Rogue (meaning a rogue who takes normal feats and is specialized almost in no way can bypass any Trap. Those who specialize with a SINGLE FEAT for traps (as Skill Focus Perception is common for all players) can also bypass anything the DM throws at them.
How do you challenge a rogue with a trap? Am I missing something in the rules?
PS: The above is not including magic items to boost Perception which would most likely be there.... or spell buffs from party members.
Myself as a DM, I found that the best way to use traps is DURING combat, or at leats in some combination with lurking monsters, and/or smart monsters. An isolated trap would be not that challenging anyway.
Said this, if your rogue optimized for traps, let him do it. It's his specialization. His companions will realize it once he's missing.
So, that clever trap designed by the BBEG super-genius wizard just happens to have a +12 circumstance bonus to DC.
When I GM, if I know who built the trap, I add their class level or HD to the DC. In general, I feel the given DCs for just about everything are too low.
If you have a Rogue, you're supposed to be safe from traps, unless he's really bad at being a Rogue. After all, Rogues got to be useful for something.
So, by this logic, if you have a tank, you are supposed to be safe from melee encounters, after all, tanks got to be useful for something...
How difficult a trap is to bypass depends on the campaign, some campaigns are designed to include traps, some are not.
When I want a trap to be difficult, I build a trap. I don't mean I "put a trap in the dungeon" I mean I build a trap. The last trap I built required the group to first identify the existence of a trap (rogue's job, but really anyone with decent perception has a chance to spot it) then figure out the nature of the trap (in this case it involved a pillar flashing a color sequence) and then execute the proper actions to overcome the trap (a process requiring at least three characters to perform a particular activity at the right time to keep the trap from going off).
The trap itself became the encounter. Different failures had different effects, which included summoning monsters to fight, falling into pits or having missiles and/or gas inflicted on party members.
Traps used to be a major part of the game, and clever, well designed traps that required thought and coordination to overcome were cosidered to be desirable campaign elements...
Naw. Traps are great. I loooooove grinning slowly at my players and saying with utmost sincerity...
"There are no traps here... that you can detect..." and watching them squirm.
I'm a big fan of 1 trap per game session minimum. I just want to be able to build them faster than one per year...
So, a Rogue who doesn't even specialize in traps gets a +28 to disarming traps. The MAXIMUM trap DC for a trap is 34. Nothing bad can happen to the rogue at this point unless some sort of circumstance penalty is applied.
If you have put 12 ranks in "disable device", then you have specialized in disabling traps. I have no problems with a rogue being able to disable any trap when he has specialized to that point.
Traps are also most useful against low-level characters. Once you've reached level 10+, traps are rarely more than speed bumps.
Those that are still useful at that point are the ones that are difficult to notice. If you can't find the trap, then you can't disable it either.
If you have a Rogue, you're supposed to be safe from traps, unless he's really bad at being a Rogue. After all, Rogues got to be useful for something.So, by this logic, if you have a tank, you are supposed to be safe from melee encounters, after all, tanks got to be useful for something...
Except traps are far more circumstantial nowadays (because modern campaigns aren't 95% dungeon crawl, usually, for good and bad), and rogues are specifically designed to PWN! traps. It's like if you have a paladin, you're quite safe from dragons (unless they out-CR you by a fair margin), because paladins are designed to combat dragons. Or if you have a cleric, you PWN diseases as soon as you get Cure Disease. If you have a ranger, tracking in natural terrain usually isn't an issue.
A tank is far more generic and their task is more generic. It's not like all skill-based classes can do this well against traps - for one, you lose the +6 bonus from trapfinding as well as probably having lower dex bonus.
EDIT: BEING a rogue is being specialized on traps, just like rangers are specialized on tracking. Yes, you can specialize further with feats and talents, but even if you don't you are a trap specialist.
|
Traps used to be a major part of the game, and clever, well designed traps that required thought and coordination to overcome were cosidered to be desirable campaign elements...
I know that the times when caster power level, wand of cure light wounds availability and HP inflation weren't problematic were fun times for everybody around, but I guess it's time to move on. :)
1) I wouldn't call putting max ranks in a skill "Specializing" for a rogue. Especially with the number of skills they will receive... and that Disable Device is just that important.
2) To say that "If you have a rogue, you are safe from traps" trivializes them... why have them roll at all... just say, there was a trap and you disarmed it. A CR 12 trap should be a challenge for a level 12 rogue... and an extreme challenge without one imho. Not a cakewalk with a rogue or impossible without one.
Remember, I am talking about supposed CR 20 traps here that a level 12 rogue can simply demolish, 8 levels below the CR.
I mean... I wouldn't be complaining right now if the CR 20 trap was a cakewalk for a "fully decked Out with magic items, Deft Hands, Skill Focus (Disable Device), level 16, Trap Expert Variant rogue"!
Heh... well, if someone thinks that traps are pretty much constrained to dungeon crawls, all I can say is they haven't been in my campaigns. Also I would say that other people may consider traps to have gone the way of the dodo bird, but I still consider them to be a major part of keeping a party on their toes.
And, as I said, finding a trap is a completely different thing from defeating a trap. Although I might put simple traps in a campaign just because it makes sense for a simple trap to be somewhere, when I put some effort into traps, I try to make the trap not just challenging but entertaining as well. And I frequently make them opportunities to force the party to work together to be successful.
But then again, I love puzzles and traps and like to make the party think. A fairly typical trap for me would be a room which has some lethal or severely damaging effect on the party until they figure out the sequence of events required to either turn off the effect, or open the way out. Sometimes the way out is hidden, sometimes it's plainly obvious, but obstructed in some way. There are always clues that the party has to locate and then figure out.
I have learned that it is surprising how simple you have to make puzzles for a group of people to be able to solve them. The trick is to make it challenging enough that it isn't immediately obvious but simple enough that it can be reliably solved and that the party can then execute the solution. The solution should require coordination between party members as well. And usually the solution involves some sort of combat encounter that happens at the same time so that the party has to commit resources both to fighting and to executing the trap solution.
Done properly it can be a very rewarding team experience. Done badly, it can be a TPK if you aren't careful... It's always good to have an emergency escape valve the party doesn't know about...