Cross-mystery Oracle?

[Scooter Scott]

Okay, so I just started a new Pathfinder Campaign, and one of my players really likes the Oracle, and has a great background story. But she is finding it extremely difficult to choose between the Flame and Heaven Mysteries... To the point of considering playing an Oracle of Heaven and multiclassing as a Sorcerer...

I guess a little of her background might help to explain... She is playing an Aasimar, with the Tongues curse causing her to speak in Abyssal. The story behind this is that at her birth her village saw her as a blessing from Sarenrae... Not too uncommon from the race description... Except for one person, the village "eccentric shaman" (in reality a witch) who saw this child as a threat and called upon her powers to lay a powerful curse on the child. so she has spent her life trying to overcome the true curse, and live up to her heritage... So you should have spotted my dilemma, and hers. Having the flame mystery, or at least some access to it, makes perfect sense, but so does having the Heaven Mystery.

I have been doing some research into possible solutions, and the new "Strange Revelation" feat from the Advanced Feats: "Visions of the Oracle" sounds promising from what I have read...

Here is another option I came up with, and want some input to see if a general consensus can be brought about concerning game balance. It would be a feat (gotta cost the player something, right?) possibly called "Errant Mysteries" or "Rogue Mysteries" or something like that.

The effect would be that a secondary mystery would be chosen, and each time a special ability (whether spell or revelation) was gained the player would have to choose 1 total from the entire spectrum available, with the exception of the final Revelation. That must be from the primary mystery.

In and of itself this doesn't seem too unbalancing to me, just a bit confusing... With the extra revelation feat it could concievably become overly powerful very quickly though. Should the feats be mutually exclusive, or just restricted to extra revelation only being able to take from the Primary mystery (though this particular player is pretty smart and would likely just choose a revelation from the secondary every time and use extra revelation to gain from the primary... Well, that's what I would do anyway, and I tought her pretty well...)?

Is this too powerful even without taking that into consideration, or am I just being paranoid?

[Selgard]

Alot of the specific revelations are meh and others are very very useful.

The problem is- each mystery is balanced by some being meh and others powerful. If you let someone choose two- they will (most likely- but not always) choose the best from the two and leave the trash untouched.

If I were you I'd have the character pick one, and then tell you which ones of the other he was interested in taking and then go from there. If its' just one or two that you do not think will cause a problem have him burn a feat on each one to take it. If he is trying to choose the cream of the crop from both though then it should cost substantially more than a feat.

While you should go out of your way to help the players- you have to be careful with this kind of blanket rule (letting them just take 1 feat to double dip the revelations) let it come back and bite you in the rump.

-S

[Dark_Mistress]

I believe one of the 3pp books has a dual mystery feat or chain of feats. I forget which one off the top of my head though.

[Set]

You could just require her to take any class granted revelations from her primary Mystery, but allow her to take revelations gained from the Extra Revelation feat from her secondary Mystery. Have her blow one of her two starting Traits to have this unique 'dual aspect' thing going on, allowing her to purchase 'cross-Mystery' revelations with the Extra Revelation feat, and that should work out. (The trait that gives you a bonus to AoO's with unarmed attacks, which is only usable if you also buy the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, sets precendent for a Trait that only is useful if you pay the appropriate feat tax.)

Alternately, you and the player could cobble together a 'Celestial Fire' Mystery that combines aspects of both Mysteries, although, as Selgard already mentioned, I'd be leery of cherry-picking the best of both Mysteries, since, IMO, about 75% of the revelations for any given Mystery are 'meh.'

[Scooter Scott]

Selgard, you kinda hit on my thought... The main problem isn't so much the revelations, as there are published feats in place to handle these, but more the availability of spells to make the background work... I am having a real hard time figuring out how to make an exception on that without horribly unbalancing the game.

Mistress, if you can come up with the name of the book, please, PLEASE post it. That would make my life so much easier... lol... If not, what is 3pp? Maybe I can peruse their site (or just their inventory here if it is available) to find the appropriate book.

[Dark_Mistress]

Scooter Scott wrote:

Selgard, you kinda hit on my thought... The main problem isn't so much the revelations, as there are published feats in place to handle these, but more the availability of spells to make the background work... I am having a real hard time figuring out how to make an exception on that without horribly unbalancing the game.

Mistress, if you can come up with the name of the book, please, PLEASE post it. That would make my life so much easier... lol... If not, what is 3pp? Maybe I can peruse their site (or just their inventory here if it is available) to find the appropriate book.

3pp = 3rd Party Publishing

basically i was saying one of the pathfinder books made by a company other than paizo I am fairly sure has it. I have reviewed over 160 such 3pp books. So my memory gets them jumbled up. Likely it is the Super Genius Games one or the one by Open Designs. I will take a look in a bit and see if I am right and which one it is.

Ok both have something kinda along those lines. The SGG book has one, where you get a second curse and a second mystery but the second mystery gains powers at 4 levels lower. The Open Design one lets you pick any mystery power you would have at your level from another mystery for a feat slot. Not sure which one works better for you.

[calagnar]

Or you could do something like this

Duel Mysteries
Benefit : This power allows you to take Revelations from a second mystery. The second mystery must be selected when you take this feat. You must poses two revelations from your 1st level mystery for every mystery gained by this feat.
Normal : You can only ever have Revelation from your one mystery.

[Brambleman]

Can we get more details on why your player is stuck between these two. At the moment there is no real explanation why this character concept fits both mysteries and would be diminished by loosing the second.

In other words, what are the arguments for each mystery so far, it might be a simple solution we're not seeing.

As a separate note, the back story mentions a curse by the shaman. Is this separate from the regular Oracle curse? Because a second curse, with the normal benefit replaced by having a second mystery, might be a solution.

[Kierato]

The character wants the powers of heaven mystery, but some fire spells. That's what I got from this.

[Set]

calagnar wrote:

Or you could do something like this

Dual Mysteries
Benefit : This power allows you to take Revelations from a second mystery. The second mystery must be selected when you take this feat. You must poses two revelations from your 1st level mystery for every mystery gained by this feat.
Normal : You can only ever have Revelation from your one mystery.

The limitation of 1 secondary for each 2 primaries is a neat way to at least slow down egregious cherry-picking.

I like it.

Still don't really like the Oracle Revelations, 'though. So limited. Gimme a Witch Hex any ding-dong-day.

[Scooter Scott]

Brambleman wrote:

As a separate note, the back story mentions a curse by the shaman. Is this separate from the regular Oracle curse? Because a second curse, with the normal benefit replaced by having a second mystery, might be a solution.

Yes, it would be a seperate curse, but related to the first. Her back story mentions not being able to control the fire burning within her... (Problem is, no fire spells or abilities in Heaven Mystery)Almost as if it had it's own intelligence, or at least it's own desire to kill innocents... As for the second curse option... You mean like being haunted, without the cool stuff, but a complete second mystery? Hadn't thought about that, but it could work... Still seems sorely over-powered, but in combination with some of the other ideas (like Seth's trait/feat use combo) might be a solution...

[Brambleman]

Kierato wrote:

The character wants the powers of heaven mystery, but some fire spells. That's what I got from this.

This would be easy: Heavens mystery, bump some fire spells like Produce Flame onto the list of oracle spell list. Produce flame is usally on the druids list, but its not imbalanced if she takes it for a spell known. A few more spells and youre golden. If this is to powerful, add the second curse option.

[Brambleman]

Scooter Scott wrote:

Brambleman wrote:

As a separate note, the back story mentions a curse by the shaman. Is this separate from the regular Oracle curse? Because a second curse, with the normal benefit replaced by having a second mystery, might be a solution.

You mean like being haunted, without the cool stuff, but a complete second mystery? ...

Yes and no. Best limit it to being able to select secondary revelations, at a two normal to one cross ratio like Set suggested. The curse explanation is spot on.

[Scooter Scott]

Dark_Mistress wrote:

Ok both have something kinda along those lines. The SGG book has one, where you get a second curse and a second mystery but the second mystery gains powers at 4 levels lower. The Open Design one lets you pick any mystery power you would have at your level from another mystery for a feat slot. Not sure which one works better for you.

I presume SGG is Super Genius Games? I only found the book about curses, and only have your review of the product to judge from at the present, but didn't see anything about revelations... Can you point me in the right direction? I am already seriously considering the Oracle OD book, for the reason you mentioned.

[Dark_Mistress]

Scooter Scott wrote:

Dark_Mistress wrote:

Ok both have something kinda along those lines. The SGG book has one, where you get a second curse and a second mystery but the second mystery gains powers at 4 levels lower. The Open Design one lets you pick any mystery power you would have at your level from another mystery for a feat slot. Not sure which one works better for you.

I presume SGG is Super Genius Games? I only found the book about curses, and only have your review of the product to judge from at the present, but didn't see anything about revelations... Can you point me in the right direction? I am already seriously considering the Oracle OD book, for the reason you mentioned.

Yes that's the book. One of the feats is called something about a second curse. you get another curse but by doing it you gain a second mystery.

Ok just looked it is the feat called Second Curse.

[Scooter Scott]

Sweet. Thanks for all of the information everyone! I think for now I will go with the officially published options, though I do like the idea of making the player also use up a trait... Probably call it Twice Cursed...

It's good to know that there are so many knowledgeable and creative people out there to help out a fellow Gamer/GM on such short notice.

It looks like I have some shopping to do... :P