- First consider Gear to determing their effective level. Normally CR for PC classes is level-1 but that's assuming NPC value gear. If they have PC value gear you add 1 so it's a wash and it's PC level = CR.
- Then you have two ways to go. Add up the XP value of each individual, and look at the chart to find their CR as a group, or use the chart for multiple creatures of the same type for a rougher estimate. It's all on P398 of the core book
Bottom line:
Party of 6(PCs), each 4th level in PC classes with PC value gear
= between CR9-10
Party of 6(orcs), each 4th level in PC classes with NPC value gear
= CR8 exactly
BUT - realise that APL for figuring relative deadliness of an encoutner is just the average party level. You just use the average level and add one since there's more than five, so Party of 6, each 4th level = APL 5
So, an APL5 party facing a CR8 is an APL+3 enounter - Epic - even though the PCs' CR is significantly above the orcs'.
- First consider Gear to determing their effective level. Normally CR for PC classes is level-1 but that's assuming NPC value gear. If they have PC value gear you add 1 so it's a wash and it's PC level = CR.
- Then you have two ways to go. Add up the XP value of each individual, and look at the chart to find their CR as a group, or use the chart for multiple creatures of the same type for a rougher estimate. It's all on P398 of the core book
Bottom line:
Party of 6(PCs), each 4th level in PC classes with PC value gear
= between CR9-10Party of 6(orcs), each 4th level in PC classes with NPC value gear
= CR8 exactlyBUT - realise that APL for figuring relative deadliness of an encoutner is just the average party level. You just use the average level and add one since there's more than five, so Party of 6, each 4th level = APL 5
So, an APL5 party facing a CR8 is an APL+3 enounter - Epic - even though the PCs' CR is significantly above the orcs'.
I agree, but even though the PCs CR is higher then orcs it should still be a challenging encounter providing that the orcs use proper tactics to challenge the party, thus making it epic. But be prepared for the players to take all there gear and their cr to increase again.
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I agree, but even though the PCs CR is higher then orcs it should still be a challenging encounter providing that the orcs use proper tactics to challenge the party, thus making it epic. But be prepared for the players to take all there gear and their cr to increase again.
It will be a very challenging encounter - expect a PC to die.
Remember, a single CR4 creature to a standard level 4 party is a CR4 encounter.
See here for a detailed explanation:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html
It will be a very challenging encounter - expect a PC to die.
Remember, a single CR4 creature to a standard level 4 party is a CR4 encounter.
See here for a detailed explanation:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html
Right, totally. Fair fights is not at all what this game's about. The deck is always stacked heavily in the player's favor. The top level of difficulty - Epic - assums the PCs will still win, but may take a casualty despite average dice and decent tactics. Just using CR,
a standard enounter = CR9-10(party) vs. CR5(monster)
... or to look at it from the orcs' perspective, those guys routeinly fight toe to toe to the death with encoutners three CRs [/i]higher[i] than Epic!
Monsters have brass balls.
party of 6 (lvl 4 each with core classes) = cr4 right
You are not doing the comparison right, you dont use CR of your party you use APL (average party level.
If you have 6 level 4 party members you are looking at APL 5 so you are looking to create a CR 5 encounter for a normal challenge for them.
Edit:
So a party of 6 level 4 characters is APL 5.
A single orc with 4 character levels is CR 3. 6 of them adds up to CR 8
party of 6 (lvl 4 each with core classes) = APL 5
party of orcs (6) (lvl 4 with core classes) = CR 9
This, except the orcs are CR 8 in this case.
here one if i copy the party of 6 APL 5 (some ppl gear est) what would be the CR or APL of the copy party if they attack them?
So you are asking what would be the CR of a group of 6 level 4 NPCs using PC classes who have PC gear?
Giving them PC gear would add 1 to their CR, so you have 6 CR 4 NPCs opposing the party. That is 7200 xp which is between a cr9 and cr 10 encounter.
here one if i copy the party of 6 APL 5 (some ppl gear est) what would be the CR or APL of the copy party if they attack them?
CR of the copy party would be 9, assuming PC gear value.
The important thing to remember is this: CR = APL is an easy fight. If you face your own party in a fight, that would be a 50/50 fight, which is a hard fight with CR = APL + 3 or 4, since it is very likely that multiple party members will die.
have you test that?here one if i copy the party of 6 APL 5 (some ppl gear est) what would be the CR or APL of the copy party if they attack them?CR of the copy party would be 9, assuming PC gear value.
The important thing to remember is this: CR = APL is an easy fight. If you face your own party in a fight, that would be a 50/50 fight, which is a hard fight with CR = APL + 3 or 4, since it is very likely that multiple party members will die.
It's common sense. If you face yourself in a fight, you and your clone have the exact same abilities and statistics. Hence, there's a 50% chance you will win, and a 50% chance your clone will win.
This works the same way when a party fights a clone party. When everything is the same, either side has a 50% chance to win.
Of course, that assumes both sides are played to the best of their abilities.
Edit: And yes, I did once have an encounter that was exactly like that; the party fought themselves. Since the "real" party was lucky on their initiative rolls, they won (with only 1 PC death). If the "fake" party had won the initiative rolls, they would most likely have won.
Edit: And yes, I did once have an encounter that was exactly like that; the party fought themselves. Since the "real" party was lucky on their initiative rolls, they won (with only 1 PC death). If the "fake" party had won the initiative rolls, they would most likely have won.
We had a similar situation in a game I played in. We faced evil versions of ourselves and several of us rolled really well on initiative. We were able to take out a couple of the evil twins before they ever got a chance to act thanks to our good initiatives, but the reverse would have been equally true if they had gone before us.
Party on party fights with equal numbers and levels is a very difficult challenge.
thats drop the copy party thing going back to the orc
then they mad the game a party of 4 vs 1 monster i dont like that they can kill that monster even if the monster has 2-3 on top of the party
i like more the one monster fights os APL5 (6 players 4lvl each)VS the some number of orc whould be what?
6 players at APL 5 vs the same number of orcs? You have a number of options, depending on how hard you want the fight to be (this assumes PC classes, NPC gear):
6 level 2 Orcs = CR 6
6 level 3 Orcs = CR 7
6 level 4 Orcs = CR 8
thats drop the copy party thing going back to the orc
then they mad the game a party of 4 vs 1 monster i dont like that they can kill that monster even if the monster has 2-3 on top of the party
i like more the one monster fights os APL5 (6 players 4lvl each)VS the some number of orc whould be what?
I recently ran a group of 6 PC's all level 4 (APL = 5) against a group of 4 NPC's all level 3 (CR 2 each, combined it's an EL 6) and it was quite entertaining.
The trick to designing encounters is to have multiple encounters per day. The cumulative effect wears the PCs down.
6 players at APL 5 vs the same number of orcs? You have a number of options, depending on how hard you want the fight to be (this assumes PC classes, NPC gear):6 level 2 Orcs = CR 6
6 level 3 Orcs = CR 7
6 level 4 Orcs = CR 8
is that all the some PC class or other PC Classes
edit: my party will kill that off in 2-3 rounds
That is any PC class you want to use. They all produce the same CR.
As for your edit: Yes, most encounters will be over after 3 rounds. If you want encounters that take longer or are more deadly, you need to use hit-and-run tactics, or ranged tactics, or CRs 4 or more above APL.
Is your problem essentially that your PCs cakewalk through everything, and you find it hard to challenge them? If so, maybe you should post a brief description of the party itself and their tactics.
did you use core classes?
Yes, core classes all around (for both PCs and NPCs). The PCs were fighter, barbarian, monk, cleric, rogue, and bard. The NPCs were fighter, rogue, cleric, and sorcerer. If they had only fought the four NPCs that day it wouldn't have been as interesting an encounter, but that fight took place after several other encounters and the NPCs got the drop on the PCs.