Hello,
An issue came up during my last session that I need some clarification on. I’ll abstract the situation a bit since I have players that cruise these boards and, since the situation hasn’t been completely resolved in game, I don’t want to ruin it for them (or me).
Let’s say that an NPC is under spell ‘X’. Spell ‘X’ changes the NPC’s form from human to animal.
The party has encountered the animal. Through successful Knowledge (Nature) checks they have determined that the animal is behaving unusually. This causes the party to pause and ponder what is up with the animal.
The party can determine rather easily that the animal is under the effect of a spell. However, I cannot find any skills or abilities that would allow them to concretely determine that spell ‘X’ was used to change the NPC from a human into an animal. Am I missing something?
The party can use ‘Detect Magic’ to determine that there is a magical aura surrounding the animal and its relative strength. A successful Knowledge (Arcana) check would also reveal that the magic associated with the aura is of the ‘Transmutation’ school. However, that is all that can be determined by 'Detect Magic'.
The party could then try and use Knowledge (Arcana) to come up with a list of spells of the transmutation school that might be causing the animal before them to behave strangely. Given the school of magic, I don’t think it’s much of a leap for the party to conclude that the animal is something other than what it seems. Perhaps, it’s not an animal at all but a person changed into one. Still, this is all speculation on the part of the party. Knowledge (Arcana) cannot determine with any certainty that the change is the result of spell ‘X’
Given the way I’m reading it, Spellcraft seems to be useless in this situation. While Spellcraft could be used to determine, at least for the purposes of counter spelling, the spell being cast by an NPC, that circumstance is long past. Furthermore, since the animal is not an item it cannot be used in unison with ‘Detect Magic’ or ‘Identify’.
Is there something I’m missing? Is there actually a way for the party to determine that spell ‘X’ is responsible for the fate of the NPC?
Thanks,
like_a_god
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Off the top of my head, no. I'd have to read through every single spell in the game to be sure, however.
Of course, they don't need to know the exact spell; dispel magic and remove curse don't care what's causing the bad thing, they just fix it.
Now, if the DM has introduced a house rule that allows certain spells to only be reversed under specific conditions, and if that house rule requires the party to identify the precise spell after it has been cast in order to reverse it, then there's a problem with the house rule. The DM needs to expand his house rule with at least three sufficiently different methods of finding the information (a family of spells, and family of skills, and a quest hook).
I would say if they have the ability to examine the animal for some time at a distance with Detect Magic they should be able to get the school of magic and level of spell... maybe even the caster level of the effect.
If they have full access to the animal I would allow them to use Detect Magic in an identical way they would to Identify a Magic Item for more specific details.
The true seeing spell or an item using it (such as the famous gem) will allow you to see the true nature of "polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things," which would pretty much hip them to what spell was (probably) used.
Now, note to Paizo: the use of the word "things" there, though it's pretty clear to this veteran of gems with this power that this includes "living things," is apt to cause a war to erupt over this.
But I can vouch that this spell has always held this purpose.
Edit: If they meant "objects," they would have said "objects."
Off the top of my head, no. I'd have to read through every single spell in the game to be sure, however.
Of course, they don't need to know the exact spell; dispel magic and remove curse don't care what's causing the bad thing, they just fix it.
Now, if the DM has introduced a [i]house rule..
BobChuck,
Thanks for the reply... nope no house rule here. And yes, there are numerous avenues that the party has to get rid of the effect, if they choose to do so.
If they have full access to the animal I would allow them to use Detect Magic in an identical way they would to Identify a Magic Item for more specific details.
Not sure that this is really a viable options. I'm not really sure what 'properties' of the animal would be revealed. The spells source isn't the animal itself, the shape is just its result.
The true seeing spell or an item using it (such as the famous gem) will allow you to see the true nature of "polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things," which would pretty much hip them to what spell was (probably) used.
Sure, 'True Seeing' would give them definitive evidence that the animal is a human but give them nothing more than that. They still have to speculate as to it's cause, just as they do with a successful Knowledge(Arcana)check.
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a Kn: Aracana check would do it:
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- Identify auras while using detect magic Arcana 15 + spell level
- Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
- Identify materials manufactured by magic Arcana 20 + spell level
- Identify a spell that just targeted you Arcana 25 + spell level
- Identify the spells cast using a specific material component Arcana 20
a Kn: Aracana check would do it:
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..
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- Identify auras while using detect magic Arcana 15 + spell level
- Identify a spell effect that is in place Arcana 20 + spell level
- Identify materials manufactured by magic Arcana 20 + spell level
- Identify a spell that just targeted you Arcana 25 + spell level
- Identify the spells cast using a specific material component Arcana 20
Happler,
Can you provide a source?
Thanks
like_a_god
*Edit*... Okay, nvm... I'm an idiot I forgot about the chart on page 101 of the Core.
Thanks!
The party could then try and use Knowledge (Arcana) to come up with a list of spells of the transmutation school that might be causing the animal before them to behave strangely. Given the school of magic, I don’t think it’s much of a leap for the party to conclude that the animal is something other than what it seems. Perhaps, it’s not an animal at all but a person changed into one. Still, this is all speculation on the part of the party. Knowledge (Arcana) cannot determine with any certainty that the change is the result of spell ‘X’
Knowledge(Arcana) allows you to:
Identify a spell effect that is in place DC 20 + spell level
My group and I have always read that to mean it identifies the actual spell that caused the effect. I suppose it's possible we're reading too much into it, but that seems fitting with the rest of the K(Arcana) uses.