Help with Draconic Bloodline


Advice


I just started my fist PF campaign as a level 1 gnome draconic sorcerer and I am looking at how to optimize melee as best as possible.

I completely recognize that
1. Sorcerers aren't the best melee
2. Gnomes aren't the best melee
but I'm going to suck it up for flavor and just try to work what I have for the best!

My GM likes to stick by written rules so I'm looking for advice on how best to play this out with limited variation from RAW.

For feats I plan to pick up
Arcane Strike
Improved Natural Weapon (claws)
Weapon Focus (claws)
Rending Claws
Power Attack
Multiattack (maybe)

Trait Heirloom Weapon (claws)

Spells would include mage armor, shield, bull's strength, rage, heroism, true strike, haste, enlarge person, shocking grasp, vampiric touch, beastshape (dinosaurs), form of the dragon, and transformation. Might be able to swap magic weapon for magic fang.

My current plan was just to take sorcerer and dragon disciple to 20 to keep the role playing aspect in tact, which will make my damage even less without spells.

BaB would go up to 12 (20 with transformation). Strength would be 2~14: +2 rage, +4 bull's strength, 4~8 strength from form change, and another 4 from transformation. I would get another +4 to hit from weapon focus, heirloom weapon, and heroism.

I think I picked up the majority of feats, spells, and other abilities to augment my melee prowess before considering additional/alternative class levels.

If anyone has any advice on other feats/spells/abilities/ideas to pick up I'd love to hear them. I'm a bit hesitant to start adding other classes into the mix just because I don't know how those affect roleplaying, but if people have ideas on how to explain why a gnome turning into a dragon might pick it up, sure!

Thanks in advance!


Phage wrote:


Trait Heirloom Weapon (claws)

I don't see how that works.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon wrote:


You carry a weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.

I think this is intended for a physical object, something that was actually passed down, rather than a concept, like claws would be.


Poor BAB classes don't do well in melee. At low level you might be alright, but as the enemies AC and attack rolls increase you will find that up front is not the place to be. If you are trying to be a caster that can fight you will probably have prestige into EK or DD. You could also see if he will allow the magus.


Vampiric Touch would help your staying power, use it early.
I would recommend Eldritch Knight (Full BAB, all but one level of spellcasting, Bonus Feats) or Dragon Disciple (3/4 BAB, all but 3 levels of spellcasting, bloodline advancement, stat and natural armor increases).
Favored Class option needs to be HP. Transformation and Form of the Dragon will go along way towards making your character playable.

PS: The strength bonus from Transformation is an enhancement bonus, does not stack with bull's strength.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

To optimize for melee, I'd recommend the following:

1) Take a level or two of a full BAB class (barbarian, cavalier, fighter, paladin, or ranger) for better weapons and other options. Which class/archetype will depend on the character's background/concept. I usually recommend starting in the full BAB class and switching to sorcerer, but sorcerer 1 + full BAB class 1 + sorcerer can work, as well.

2) Switch to dragon disciple as soon as you qualify (after 5th character level, if you've been puting ranks into Knowledge (Arcana)). The first four levels of dragon disciple are great for a melee/caster, although the 3/4 BAB and spellcasting progression make continuing a bit meh IMO.

3) Switch to eldritch knight after dragon disciple to keep both BAB (full) and spellcasting progression (9/10) high.

A straight-forward progression might be:

sorcerer 1; Eschew Materials, Toughness
fighter 1; Power Attack
sorcerer 2; Arcane Strike
sorcerer 3; bonus spell (mage armor)
sorcerer 4; feat
dragon disciple 1
dragon disciple 2; Bloodline Feat, feat
dragon disciple 3
dragon disciple 4; feat
eldritch knight 1; Bonus Feat
...
stay in eldritch knight from that point on (probably taking one more level of sorcerer or dragon disciple for 20 total levels). At low levels, look at spells that have no somatic component (flare, true strike, etc.) to cast in armor without a chance of spell failure. If you want to keep casting in armor (which can be less costly in gp to keep your AC up), then look at Arcane Armor Training/Mastery and/or Still Spell (either taking a feat or investing in metamagic rods); there are issues with swift action use and/or spell slots/gp with this approach, however.

By 10th level, your BAB will be +7 and your spell progression will be as a 7th level sorcerer. Check with your GM to see if you can use traits from the APG; Magical Knack (Sorcerer) can raise your caster level (only) by 2, not to exceed HD, which can be a big help. By 20th level, your BAB will be +16 and your spell progression will be as a 16th or 17th level sorcerer (depending on whether you took an additional dragon disciple of sorcerer level).


TheeGravedigger wrote:
Phage wrote:


Trait Heirloom Weapon (claws)

I don't see how that works.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon wrote:


You carry a weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.

I think this is intended for a physical object, something that was actually passed down, rather than a concept, like claws would be.

+1

People (myself included) always forget that traits are meant for flavor first, mechanical advantage second.

I know that a lot of people thought that Heirloom Weapon was overpowered as well, and now I see that it's no longer in the PRD. Has it been errata'd out?


Heirloom Weapon would definitely be a stretch, but my logic was that I'm turning into an avatar of this dragon, it's making me a touch schizophrenic, and so I thought that the familiarity with them would make sense. I was going to be limiting all my beastshapes and dragon form to represent varying levels of this evolution so the claws would be its claws for intensive purposes.

My character is primarily going to be meleeing; most of my spells will be buffs or touch based. Since I have no interest focusing in the standard nukes and have an inferior BaB the +1 to hit would be a pretty decent exchange. Plus I'm a gnome so my to hit is extra sad and needs help.

As far as multiclasting pre-5, I thought that I required Knowledge Arcana as a base skill for the class leveling up, which would mean I couldn't choose fighter pre-5 and still get dragon disciple at level 6, correct? Or did I misunderstand that limitation?

Because I lack experience playing, I don't know how feasible it is to manage buffs. Should I expect to have Bull's Strength, Rage, Haste, Enlarge Person, Beastshape, Form of the Dragon, Transformation etc up for any major encounter once I have access to them?

Assuming I can expect to be fully buffed for the majority of the fight then after level 14 I could use Transformation and my base BaB wouldn't matter so the later levels would be more about utility than innate combat prowess?

With Beastshape and Form of the Dragon, I could also get better natural attacks among a slew of strength buffs to negate my low base strength and AC, so I should be pretty fiesty and moderately comparable to pure melee classes...so I hope!

The Exchange

Re: buff management - You should expect multiple encounters before resting to get your spells back. If buffing is crucial to your melee success, then you should look into wands/potions/scrolls to maintain your melee prowess. Keep in mind that as long as a spell is on your class spell list (u don't actually have to know it), you can cast it from a wand/scroll.


I wouldn't be relying on buffs for all fights, but I would have a half dozen I would plan to use for major encounters.

In most campaigns do most major encounters occur with warning? Obviously some will be a surprise, but just curious if as a general rule DMs let people know they are about to get into a major fight for buffing up purposes?

So if I understand correctly and assuming my original plan, at level 14 a 5Sorc/9DD could start a fight with Mage Armor, +2 Magic Fang, Greater Heroism, Quicken Spell Cast Rage and Shield, then cast Haste, Form of the Dragon I, and Transformation

With a base strength of 16, this would up me to +8 STR mod, 15 ac (5base +6-2+4), +5 to hit for all attacks (+7 for claws, another +2 for anything with Magic Fang prolly claws), and I would have a BaB of 14. Base attacks would be 2 claws (1d8 each after INA, 1d6 rend, 1.0 str mod), 1 bite (1d8 with 1.5 str mod), 2 wing (1d4 each, 0.5 str mod).

Adding in Power Attack and Arcane Strike damage could be:
3 Claw + 27 (14+8+7+2-4) dealing 3*(1d8+3AS+8PA+8STR+2MF)+1d6 [3d8+63+1d6]
1 Bite + 23 (14+8+5-4) dealing 1d8+3AS+12PA+12STR [1d8+27]
2 Wing + 18 (14+8+5-4-5) dealing 2*(1d4+3AS+4PA+4STR) [2d4+22]

Redoing this for FotDIII at 20 with at 32 STR, 5 magic fang:
3 Claw +37 (20+11+7+5-6) dealing 3*(3d6+5AS+12PA+11STR+5MF)+1d6 [10d6+95]
1 Bite +30 (20+11+5-6) dealing 2d8+5AS+18PA+16STR [2d8+39]
2 Wing +25 (20+11+5-6-5) dealing 2*(1d8+5AS+6PA+5STR) [2d8+32]
1 Tail +25 (20+11+5-6-5) dealing 2d6+5AS+18PA+16STR [2d6+39]

Additional strength from gear would increase damage by 3.5 per point (1.0 per claw, 1.5 per bite/tail, and 0.5 per wing, 3*1+1.5+2*0.5+1.5=7 per modifier). I have no idea how much strength to expect from gear at levels 14 or 20.

Bit unsure on what AC to use for expected accuracy, but it looked like with full buffs I should have high accuracy.

I'm not entirely certain if I applied all the bonuses properly, so if anyone sees any errors I would appreciate the help on correcting the math.

I have a very limited base line of what damage should look like coming from a fighter of equal level, but it seems like if I do have all my buffs up and I can take the feats/traits I want I could probably do about the same damage?

The Exchange

Re: encounter warning - Hate to break it to ya, but most encounter just happens. You open a door in a dungeon and there might be a horde of bad guys or the room could be empty. That's why having a good scout is useful; he can clue the party in on what's ahead by running ahead and reporting back. Certain divination magic (as well as detect magic/evil) also work, albeit on a more limited basis. Therefore, having all the right buffs up as combat begins is almost impossible. Magic Fang, Heroism, Rage, Shield, Haste, and Form of the Dragon also all have short durations so you can't caste them way ahead of time. Quicken spell is certainly a good solution, but the spell slot sacrifice is too great for me to recommend it. A quicken metamagic rod (very expensive) would allow you to do it for free on a limited basis. Just remember to tuck that little sucker someplace safe before charging into battle.


Heroism is 10 minutes/level, certainly long enough to be up for a considerable amount of time.


I don't understand why you insist on going full Sorceror + Dragon Disciple 'for roleplay reasons'.
Certainly the Fighter class at the least has NO imposition on how you can act, and what sort of other abilities you have...
It just makes you good at melee combat... Which since you're already trying to accomplish that, I don't see the conflict.
You just pick the Feats you want faster, and get generic attack bonuses for weapon group + armor training OR variant abilities.
Dragon Disciple can be qualified for with only 1 Sorceror level, and the rest Fighter if you want.
If you really want you can throw in a few more Sorceror levels here and there...
But I would say forget about more Sorceror levels until you have 8th level in Dragon Disciple.
Taking at least 2 levels of Paladin is highly synergistic (awesome Saves), but of course has it's own heavy Role-Playing/Paladin's Code requirements.

If you want a competent melee'ist with Draconic Sorceror Casting as backdrop, that's the way to go IMHO.
Of course, 'optimally' you should have started with Fighter at first level for max d10 HPs.

Alternately, using Bard as the base class is a very interesting way to go (it just has more 'flavor' specificity which the Fighter doesn't carry... though you can really 'flavor' your Performance however you want, e.g. Gnomish-Fey limericks of imminent death), you get the Performance and other Bard buffs (which help your own melee as well) and you can cast in Light Armor (which can be Mithril Breastplate, though you need Medium Proficiency to not take penalties with that).

The Arcane Duelist actually starts out with Medium Armor Casting (going up to Heavy @10th class level, but you just need Heavy Armor Proficiency Feat and Mithril Fullplate to Cast and Fight in Heavy Armor with no penalties). With the Magician Bard, you get access to non-Bard spells (@2nd, 6th class level) and other nice goodies like bonus to CL and Concentration, Bonus Feats, and using your performance to grant a bonus effect to any weapon... Both get Bonded Item, letting you cheaply upgrade your gear (and have a bonus spellslot).

I would say those are 'optimal' way to build a Melee Dragon Disciple. 1 level of Fighter also gets you Heavy Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon Proficiency, a bonus Feat and good BAB, HD, and Fort Save.

The Exchange

tonyz wrote:
Heroism is 10 minutes/level, certainly long enough to be up for a considerable amount of time.

A sorc 5 / DD 10 's Heroism duration is 12 x 10 min/lvl = 120 min = 2 hours (10 min/lvl is spellcasting lvl, not total level). It sounds like a long time, but I think a lot of activities that take up time sometimes get taken for granted. Searching a room, figuring out a puzzle, and backtracking to go to another part of the dungeon all takes time. If you subtract an estimated portion of time due to these activities from the duration, you'll be looking at a lot less than 2 hours. I think a wand would take care this problem nicely, but only for Heroism.

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