Increasing caster level past your own for the purposes of crafting a more powerful potion.


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Can a crafter increase the CL of a potion via increasing the DC in order to create a more powerful potion? and if so by what amount is the DC increased per caster level?

ex. a lvl 12 druid creates a potion of greater magic fang with a CL of 20, so that it gives the imbiber a +5 bonus to attacks and lasts for 20 hrs.


Probably, but you'd have to have the raised caster level for the entire time you crafted the item; temporary buffs would not work.


It has been said before that you can create an item with a caster level higher than your own, by increasing the DC of the item by +5. I am not sure that applies to potions, scrolls and wands though...


Brf wrote:
It has been said before that you can create an item with a caster level higher than your own, by increasing the DC of the item by +5. I am not sure that applies to potions, scrolls and wands though...

If that's indeed possible (I haven't seen said ruling myself), then I don't see why it wouldn't apply to potions, scrolls and wands.


Brf wrote:
It has been said before that you can create an item with a caster level higher than your own, by increasing the DC of the item by +5.

I have always understood the rules to be that you cannot create items of a higher caster level. This is not a requirement; it is only listed for the rule about determining costs, but it seems to set a precedent:

"While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."

This fairly clearly says that the caster level is the caster level of the item creator, but he has the choice to make it lower. It does not say he has the choice to make it higher.

The closest thing I know of to an official ruling that says otherwise is the FAQ about Pearl of Power which says a caster could create a Pearl higher than his own caster level with +5 to the DC, but the +5 is NOT because he didn't meet the caster level, but because he failed to meet the "Must be able to cast the right level of spells" requirement.

So if this is a general rule that anyone can create any item over his own caster level, then it would NOT require a +5 to the DC because caster level is not a "requirement" except for armor, weapons, and a few wondrous items.

As for me, my personal jury is still out on whether that FAQ was deliberately contravening the CRB regarding creating items above the creator's caster level or not; it might just have been a careless oversight.

Note that raising the caster level, if allowed, means a higher Spellcraft check to create the item and it means a more expensive item.

For example, that CL 20 Greater Magic Fang potion would have a base price of 3,000gp and would cost the druid 1,500gp to make it. The DC 25 Spellcraft check should be automatic for any druid of that level, so that's not too big a concern.

Brf wrote:
I am not sure that applies to potions, scrolls and wands though...

That restriction applies to "requirement". Caster level is not a requirement for item creation except in a very few cases (armor, weapons, and miscellaneous items that duplicate armor or weapons such as an Amulet of Natural Armor).


I saw another post that said it was stated in the CRB that you could not raise the level, but I could not find the same text in the PRD.


DM_Blake is correct as far as I've read. Other than the specific clause for lowering caster level, you can skip requirements (i.e., things listed under "Construction Requirements" other than cost or item creation feats, and other than spells in the case of potions, spell-trigger or spell-completion items) with a DC +5 per skipped requirement, and that's pretty much it. Caster level is rarely a requirement--the listing only shows the caster level of a typical found version of a given item. So the item is at your caster level or lower, as you choose. Higher is right out.


The FAQ example of the Pearl of Power is saying that you can create the Pearl at a lower caster level than the description of the item, as long as it is at least as high as its spell requirements. Does that mean you can create any other Item at a lower level than the description?

Also, the Pearl of Power example specifically says a 3rd level caster could create a Pearl with a CL of 5.

Liberty's Edge

You can set the caster level at whatever level you want, it is in the Pearl of power FAQ:

FAQ wrote:
He [the item creator] can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic).

but

potions have a specific rule:

PRD wrote:

Brew Potion (Item Creation)

.... When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level.

From what I remember scrolls and wands follow the same rule, but I was unable to find the right reference with a rapid search.

Brf wrote:

The FAQ example of the Pearl of Power is saying that you can create the Pearl at a lower caster level than the description of the item, as long as it is at least as high as its spell requirements. Does that mean you can create any other Item at a lower level than the description?

Also, the Pearl of Power example specifically says a 3rd level caster could create a Pearl with a CL of 5.

Yes.

PRD wrote:
A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

You can crate an item at whatever caster level you want, as long as the level is high enough to cast the spell.

Crafting arm and armor is an exception to that as the special abilities have a caster level requisite that you can't lower.
But you can still make them even if you don't meet the required CL, simply the check is harder because the DC of making a magic item is CL of the item +5.

Example:
a +1 bane (outsider) weapon require a CL of 3 for the +1 part, a CL of 8 for the bane part and the Summon Monster I spell.
The crafter is a level 3 wizard that know Summon Monster I.
Not having a CL of 8 don't add a +5 for missing a prerequisite, the crafter know all needed spell, so the DC of crafting the item is item CL+5)base modifier for crafting magic items).
That mean a DC of 13.

The difficulty would be the same for a level 8 wizard.


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Brf wrote:
I saw another post that said it was stated in the CRB that you could not raise the level, but I could not find the same text in the PRD.

Take a look at the Brew Potion feat itself. That feats sets a maximum caster level of your own level for anyone making a potion.

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