Say, I want my character to create a magic item able to replicate the effect of an existing spell, while not being a spellcaster himself (he has the Master Craftsman and Craft Wondrous Item feats, and I know that he gets +5 to the DC because he can't cast the spell). Besides asking someone else to do it, what are his options?
- "Command Word" cost is "Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp"
- does this option allow for an unlimited number of uses per day?
- does this option work for spells that have a duration?
- does this option work with items stored in bags/pouches/etc?
- is this possible to activate several items with the same command word?
- how long does it take to use the item? Free action as in "speaking"? Standard as in "activating a magic item"? - "Use-activated or continuous" cost is "Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp"
- what does "use-activated" mean, here?
- can this option be used to speed up a given item's activation action?
- can this option be used an unlimited number of times per day?
- what about a use-activated AND continuous item?
- what about continuous AND command word?
- is a continuous effect dismissible at will as a free action?
- is a use-activated effect dismissible through another use of the item? - "Charges per day" cost is "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)"
- can this be applied to a continuous item in order to lower the price even if the effect is to be used all day long? - "Charged (50 charges)" cost is "1/2 unlimited use base price"
- what is "unlimited use"? Is it "continuous"? The note #4 seems to indicate otherwise... - "No space limitation" example is "Ioun stone"
- does this option apply to an item that can be safely stashed in a backpack? Grafted under one's skin (or under a Warforged plating)? Stored away in one's house?
Could the character craft a scabbard (no space limitation, use-activated by drawing a weapon) casting the given spell on him as a continuous effect? With a spell of level 3 and CL 5, what would be its price?
Could the character craft a small cube (no space limitation) casting the given spell on him as a continuous effect by speaking the command word? With the same spell of level 3 and CL 5, what would be the item's price?
Thanks for your enlightened advice.
[url]http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html[/url] For reference.
My idea?
* "Command Word" cost is "Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp"
- Once per day
- Yes, according to CL of the creator (assistant caster)?
- Equiped or wielded
- I would say no, logically, but I may be wrong.
- Standard as in "activating a magic item"
* "Use-activated or continuous" cost is "Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp"
- On-and-off switch
- Don't understand this one.?
- Yes
- Why would you want that?
- continuous AND command word = use-activated?
- no, it's CONTINUOUS
- I would say yes (like on/off switch)
* "Charges per day" cost is "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)"
- either X charges, or continuous.. Not both
* "Charged (50 charges)" cost is "1/2 unlimited use base price"
- Like command word
* "No space limitation" example is "Ioun stone"
- Close enough to have its effect. So no to house, and i would say no to backpack. Like your shield doesn't protect you (as effectively) in combat when it's hanging on your back?
Could the character craft a scabbard (no space limitation, use-activated by drawing a weapon) casting the given spell on him as a continuous effect? With a spell of level 3 and CL 5, what would be its price?
==> Use activated would be cast on the item then, no?
==> Continuous means no suppresion, so no?
Could the character craft a small cube (no space limitation) casting the given spell on him as a continuous effect by speaking the command word? With the same spell of level 3 and CL 5, what would be the item's price?
==> Continuous means no suppresion, so no?
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Firstly, what spell are we talking about here? you clearly have one in mind.
Secondly, the Item Creation rules are GUIDELINES. You can use them to create all kinds of ridiculously insane items that really have no business being in most games. The rules are decent for eyeballing an existing concept, but they break very easily if you try to min-max with them.
now, your questions:
* Command Word = 1,800 * spell level * caster level.
It is "command word activated", which is detailed in your book. It's a Standard Action to activate. Once active, the spell functions exactly as though it had been cast by a spellcaster of the designated caster level. There are no "charges" or "uses per day" limitations.
* Use-activated / Continuous = 2,000 * spell level * caster level * duration factor.
The effect is active continuously, which can mean "all the time" or "whenever you need it", whichever makes more sense (does your character want his belt of strength +6 "on" when he's trying to crack eggs for breakfast, or picking up a glass of champagne?). In either case, the effect is present when the character needs it to be, without any action required. It does not have charges or uses per day.
Don't forget about the duration factor - check your chart, this entry has a "2" superscript next to it.
* charges per day = divide by (5 / the number of charges)
Let me answer your question with a question: Does a "continuous" item sound like the sort of thing that gets activated? If not, how can it have charges?
On the other hand, a "use activated" item can have charges. If you make the duration long enough, you might be able to keep the spell active all day. Of course, once you get the item to that point, the GM will probably say "so its just a continuous item", so your cheese gets ban-hammered.
* Charges (50) = divide normal price by half.
Again, a "continuous" item is never activated, so it can never lose its charges, so this cheese doesn't work.
A use-activated or command-word item can have charges, of course. The price of such items would be 1000 (use activated) or 900 (command word) * spell * caster; both are slightly higher than Wands/Staves, which use Spell Trigger (750 * spell * caster), but command word can be used by anybody, not just spellcasters, and use-activated does not require an action, so the increase in price is justified.
* no space limitation = double the base price
Yes to all, but the item needs to be "connected" to you, and follow all normal rules. Ioun Stones are "worn" in a way that does not use a slot, so anything similar will work (pocket, backpack, etc). Note that a normal backpack works, but a bag of holding or other extra-dimensional space is not "connected to you", unless the item's effect extends to other dimensions.
You could have it installed under your plating, but that would take a day or two of work. Jamming it under your skin is, well, an exttremely bad idea - the first crazy magic thief that picks up the scent of your uber-item will just lop off the limb and take that, rather than waste time digging it out.
That said, a magic tattoo is similar, and fairly common (for this sort of thing, anyway). It's generally understood (in the "fluff") that magical tattoos cannot be removed, transferred, or upgraded; again, if you get taken prisoner, assuming they don't toss you in an anti-magic shell, they'll just lop off the limb and heal you, so keep that in mind.
* the Scabbard: generic third level spell, 5th level caster: 2,000 * 3 * 5 = 30,000 base price, * 2 for no space limitation = 60,000 times the duration factor. I'm going to guess you are talking about Haste, which has a duration in rounds, so the duration factor is 4. so that's 60,000 * 4 = 240,000 gold.
* Cube: What? Is this a "continuous" effect, that's on all the time, or a "command word" effect, that takes a standard action to activate?
Thanks for your replies.
I initially thought that "continuous" meant "activate, and it lasts indefinitely", not "put it on, and it lasts indefinitely". With this in mind, I'm in the wrong in most assumptions.
I guess that the difference between use-activated and command word is that use-activated is silent (but still a standard action). Is that it?
So, if I want my character to craft an item that can be activated several times per day (and last the spell's duration), I look up "use-activated" and "charges per day"... right?
Which lines would I refer for the same item with a different duration? An unlimited duration? Would this require to be a "continuous" item that I'd have to equip (to activate) and remove (to deactivate)?
I initially thought about doing it as a wondrous item, but the above question got me thinking: can such an enchantment be put on a weapon?
And, for the record, I was thinking about all those fighter-friendly buffs of various levels but which alter the recipient's appearance (Enlarge, Giant Form, etc). These can be detrimental if continuous (AC, Stealth, squeezing, etc).
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Thanks for your replies.
You are welcome.
I guess that the difference between use-activated and command word is that use-activated is silent (but still a standard action). Is that it?
Nope. Use-Activated is the same thing as continuous. They have the same price. Are your "boots of walk fast" continuously improving your speed, or do they improve the speed of each step as you take the step? Does the distinction even matter?
To put it another way: Spells that are "instantaneous" in duration cannot be made use activated or continuous.
Also, items that do not have a "normal use" cannot be made "use-activated" because there's no "use action" to trigger the effect. A Rock cannot be made into a magic item with a "use-activated" trigger.
So, if I want my character to craft an item that can be activated several times per day (and last the spell's duration), I look up "use-activated" and "charges per day"... right?
Either "use-activated or continuous" or "command word", depending on if you want to spend a standard action turning it on or not. A Scabbard that casts "magic weapon" three times per day on whatever weapon is drawn from it would be "use-activated", because it triggers when the item is used for its normal function.
Which lines would I refer for the same item with a different duration? An unlimited duration? Would this require to be a "continuous" item that I'd have to equip (to activate) and remove (to deactivate)?
What? Can you please start giving actual examples, because it's hard to understand what you are trying to ask? If you aren't sure what you are trying to ask, please re-read the rules, try some things, and think about it before posting; it's hard trying to guess.
I initially thought about doing it as a wondrous item, but the above question got me thinking: can such an enchantment be put on a weapon?
Yep. The effect does not take up an item slot, so it's x2 normal price. I'd go with "command word" in this case; "use-activated" would mean it triggers after you make your first attack, and keeps on triggering with every additional attack.
And, for the record, I was thinking about all those fighter-friendly buffs of various levels but which alter the recipient's appearance (Enlarge, Giant Form, etc). These can be detrimental if continuous (AC, Stealth, squeezing, etc).
Okay. pick one. Any single one spell that you'd like to examine. I suggest one that's not first level.
Now, sit down and write up a full item description, complete with how it activates, or what causes it to effect the character (cube works continuously as long as its in your pocket). Do a version for each of these:
Takes up a slot VS does not take up a slot
Continuous VS Use-Activated VS Command Word
Unlimited VS Charges per day (3/5)
Write up all 12 versions.
Seriously, every single one. It's the best way, and really the only way, to really understand this.
Try to make them look like item entries from the book, complete with market price, cost to create, spell needed to create, the item's caster level, etc. There will be a lot of copy-pasting, so it's not that hard.
Grab any that you don't understand, and post them here. Ideally, you'll understand them all; if that's the case, grab two or three that you like the best, and post them so we can see what you've come up with.
Thanks again for the lengthy answer :-)
Well... the gist is that I don't know which kind of item to use and the relevant lines in the table from "magic item creation". If I did, my questions would be more straightforward.
But, to be more precise, let's talk about this:
- The item would be a scabbard. "Scabbard" is not a valid slot for a magic item. Would it work if it was made to be used as the "belt" slot? What about a Sheath on the bracers slot, is it even possible?
- The spell would be Giant Form I (sorc/wiz list, level 7 => CL 13; spell duration is 1 min/level).
- The enchantment would be cast on the wielder whenever he draws the weapon and dismissed when the weapon is sheated (or the scabbard is removed/destroyed/etc.)
So... use-activated means 7x13x1000 gp.
Final cost if the scabbard is made slotless (x2): 182k
DC: 5+13(CL)+5(missing spell requirement) = 23?
Does the note #2 apply even though it refers only to "continuous" and the item is "use-activated"? If it doesn't apply, I guess that the effect should end after 13 minutes? So, if I want it to last any longer, I would have to apply note #2 to the price... right?
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Thanks again for the lengthy answer :-)
Well... the gist is that I don't know which kind of item to use and the relevant lines in the table from "magic item creation". If I did, my questions would be more straightforward.
Which is why I'm suggesting you write them all up, including how they trigger and everything. I realize that's a lot, but there's no good way to figure it out - we can't spend hours walking you through this.
But, to be more precise, let's talk about this:
- The item would be a scabbard. "Scabbard" is not a valid slot for a magic item. Would it work if it was made to be used as the "belt" slot? What about a Sheath on the bracers slot, is it even possible?
Alright, here's part of your confusion. Stop thinking of them as "equipment" slots. Think of them as "area" slots.
For instance, you get one "back" slot, which can be a "cloak" or a "jacket" or a "vest". You get one "neck" slot, which can be an "amulet" or "broach" of "clasp".
So you can have a "belt slot" item, that consists of a Scabbard-and-Belt combo, which will resize to fit whoever wears it, and whatever weapon is put in it.
Or you can have a "no slot" item, that's just a Scabbard.
Remember - how it looks from a Role-playing perceptive does not have to be the same as how it works mechanically.
- The spell would be Giant Form I (sorc/wiz list, level 7 => CL 13; spell duration is 1 min/level).
- The enchantment would be cast on the wielder whenever he draws the weapon and dismissed when the weapon is sheathed (or the scabbard is removed/destroyed/etc.)
ah, alright, this helps. Thank you.
So... use-activated means 7x13x1000 gp.
Use-Activated = 2,000. Use-Activated is the exact same price as continuous - "there all the time" is he same as "there whenever you need it" from a mechanical perceptive.
I think you got the "1,000" bit from when I was talking about "50 charges", which halves the price. We aren't talking about an item with 50 charges (unless we are, and it wasn't mentioned?) so it's 2k * spell * caster.Final cost if the scabbard is made slotless (x2): 182k
DC: 5+13(CL)+5(missing spell requirement) = 23?
Again, double the price, so 364k.
Does the note #2 apply even though it refers only to "continuous" and the item is "use-activated"? If it doesn't apply, I guess that the effect should end after 13 minutes? So, if I want it to last any longer, I would have to apply note #2 to the price... right?
Note #2 does not apply in any way, shape, or form. It is a use-Activated item, not a Continuous item. The price is the same, but they don't work quite identically in-game.
If you want it to last longer, you could increase the caster level and/or add the Extend Spell to Giant-Size. Or, you could spend a full round sheathing and re-drawing the sword, which seems like a better option.Incidentally, this is why Warriors put up with casters - it's stupid-expensive to replace them.
You might be able to get your DM to ad-hoc the price down if you limit the scabbard to a specific form of giant. That's something worth mentioning when creating magic items; the DM should always be involved in the process.
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You might be able to get your DM to ad-hoc the price down if you limit the scabbard to a specific form of giant. That's something worth mentioning when creating magic items; the DM should always be involved in the process.
+1.
The item creation rules are guidelines and can very easily be used to break the game in interesting and creative ways.
The point is definitely worth emphasizing: check with your GM, keep him in the loop every step of the way, and so on. He has final say.
Thanks, again.
Firstly, I do know that players wanting their characters to craft magic items must involve the GM. What I'm interested in is the correctness of the choices regarding the rules.
Second, I also know about the slots being areas. I'm just thinking about what type of item would be valid choices for the use-activated option, and a scabbard popped up in my mind. What other item can be activated as a free action (through Quick Draw)? A pouch from which I'd draw shurikens?
The sentences I wrote about it were additional thoughts on the subject. One such thought is that the "slotless" additional cost is computed when crafting the item, so one has to establish the slot or slotless property when doing so. Once this is done, it can't be changed.
Despite my thoughts about this, I'm not putting this on a weapon because my character has Craft Wondrous Item and Master Craftsman (leatherworks) and not Craft Magic Arms And Armor - incidentally, said character is currently "between adventures" while I GM for others. That means no GM to adjudicate my choices yet. For the record, the character has several monk levels-worth of unarmed damage, which are going to increase due to the larger shape. I'm intending to go for Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries for additional increases in unarmed damage.
To refine a little bit:
- The item is a slotless scabbard, which activates when emptied.
- The spell is Giant Form II now, allowing for a Huge-sized humanoid form.
I need to either buy a scabbard, or craft one. PRD doesn't give prices but it shouldn't cost much.
To enchant it, I need half the base price. That's why I wrote x1000 in my previous post. I might also tie it to the monk class for a 30% discount.
Use-activated means 8x15x2000 gp. Slotless means x2. Retail price would be 480k. Since I'm crafting it (x0.5) for limited users (x0.7), the cost goes down to 168k.
DC=25 (you didn't react to this so I guess that using the CL computed/chosen for the given spell is legit)
I might also tie it to the monk class for a 30% discount.
Use-activated means 8x15x2000 gp. Slotless means x2. Retail price would be 480k. Since I'm crafting it (x0.5) for limited users (x0.7), the cost goes down to 168k.
DC=25 (you didn't react to this so I guess that using the CL computed/chosen for the given spell is legit)
Using class or alignment restrictions to give yourself a discount is a bit of a sticky wicket. It's there in the RAW to be sure, but most tend to believe it's not intended to allow crafting characters to give themselves an easy discount. Otherwise the world would be full of items restricted like that.
I also think that the item you're describing is not a use-activated item. Use-activated is something like a Lantern of Revealing, where the magic is activated by actually using the item. The scabbard you want is not USED by simply drawing out the sword. Further, what's to stop the character from simply never sheathing the sword? Or what happens if the sword is disintergrated? Now he's got a Giant Form II on all the time.
What you've got here instead is a continuous-use item that isn't on all the time. And this is why all the pricing rules are not so much rules, as guidelines. :) If we call it continuous-use, we end up with the following pricing formula for the market price:
8 (SL) x 15 (CL) x 2000 x 2 (slotless) x 2 (duration) = 960k
However, it's not really truly continuous since we don't want it on ALL the time, just when we do something specific. What if we called it a command word item? Then we end up with:
8 x 15 x 1800 x 2 = 432k
That's a pretty good price. But... you don't want your item to require a standard action to activate (like a command word one would), and this item would also have a limited duration, 15 minutes per use. So I think you need to decide on a happy medium between these two extremes. Say, half the difference (264k) added on to the low end, for a total of 696k. Then half of that for how much it'll cost you, and we end up with 348k. That's what I'd go with.
Oh, and don't forget it'll take you 1 day per 1k in the market price to make this. So even in the best-case scenario of your own calculation, you're looking at almost a full year (336 days).
Instead of going giant, you could choose an item with contiuous Strong Jaw for your druid. That way, you would get two size increases to your unarmed attacks, without actually changing size.
The market price: 4*7*2000*2= 102k (having it made based on the ranger spell level would lower it to 81k, but that is a call for a GM).