| 6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Is there a "caught off guard" feat tax on the monk of the empty hand? That sounds so incredibly counter-intuitive that it has to be some form of mistake.
By some reading of RAW, the monk of the empty hand takes a -4 penalty with improvised weapons, since he is in fact only using improvised weapons.
Is there a "caught off guard" feat tax on the monk of the empty hand? That sounds so incredibly counter-intuitive that it has to be some form of mistake.
By some reading of RAW, the monk of the empty hand takes a -4 penalty with improvised weapons, since he is in fact only using improvised weapons.
The penalty only applies once if that is what you are asking.
edit:Yeah the monk must take that caught off guard feat to use any weapon, and I agree I don't see any reason to use this archetype.
Yeah, I'd say a MotEH would take the penalty, unless they take Catch Off Guard or Improvised Weapon Mastery as their bonus feat at 1st level.
And really, I don't find MotEH to be that bad of a choice. It's actually pretty decent. I had started out calling it "not that bad, although not great", but as I started writing up my reasoning for that, I realized it's actually quite good if used correctly.
The key is to take IWM instead of COG and ignore the "A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon)..." rule. You don't want to be using a regular weapon as an improvised quarterstaff. You want to fall back to the default rule for Improvised Weapons:
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.
. You're going to want to pick up any random piece of junk that would match up to a greatclub. A 2x4 would probably work. Definitely anything larger. After applying Improvised Weapon Mastery, you have a 2d6 bashing weapon that does 19-20/x2 - effectively a greatsword. So now you have a monk that can flurry with a greatsword-equivalent, and when neccesary, have it become slashing or piercing, or bane for one ki/round.
An 11th level monk wielding a 2x4 getting 6 attacks on you, three at full BAB, with the equivalent of a greatsword with bane against you, for the cost to him of 2 ki/round (1 extra attack on flurry, 1 for bane), is pretty scary.
It's a very good thing you can't stack this with hungry ghost or drunken master - a monk who could spend ki to bane, and could recharge their ki (mid-combat or during the day) would just be broken.
@Bobson
No, that's not how it works. The monk of the empty hand write-up specifically says what the equivalent weapons are for all 3 size weapon categories that you can wield. The empty hand simply text overrides the core rule for improvised weapons. A GREATCLUB(tm) is still a 1d6/1d6 quarterstaff in the hands of the empty hands. You can scale it up more if you want, and it still stays 1d6/1d6 - up to the point where the monk simply cannot wield the thing any more.
Catch Off-Guard is, unfortunately, not a monk bonus feat - so cannot be taken as a bonus feat. Improvised Weapon Mastery is, but only from level 6 onwards.
The monk cannot "bane" and "extra attack" with ki in the same round, as both are activated as swift actions.
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However. What might be legal, if you have a forgiving GM: wield a two-handed weapon (as quarterstaff-equivalent), with Improvised Weapon Mastery that would now be a 1d8/1d8 weapon. With a potion of shillelagh it becomes a 2d8/2d8 weapon. Then you can still use bane as applicable.
Is there a "caught off guard" feat tax on the monk of the empty hand? That sounds so incredibly counter-intuitive that it has to be some form of mistake.
Yes, you need to take Catch Off-Guard if you want to use improvised weapons without penalty.
Catch Off-Guard is, unfortunately, not a monk bonus feat - so cannot be taken as a bonus feat.
Look again.
"Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything."
@Bobson
No, that's not how it works. The monk of the empty hand write-up specifically says what the equivalent weapons are for all 3 size weapon categories that you can wield. The empty hand simply text overrides the core rule for improvised weapons.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff. This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
PRD[/url]]Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.
Note that the Monk's ability specifically only applies to "normal weapons" with a listed set of equivalences. It doesn't affect what happens if you're wielding a chair leg, a door, or the neighbor's dead cat. It does apply if you pick up knives, the fighter's spare longsword, or an actual club. They had to add that rule because otherwise one would be able to argue "This _____ I'm using as an improvised weapon is exactly like a ______, so I should get its damage".
Catch Off-Guard is, unfortunately, not a monk bonus feat - so cannot be taken as a bonus feat. Improvised Weapon Mastery is, but only from level 6 onwards.
You're right about IWM - I missed the "at 6th level". The 2x4 would still be a 1d10 weapon before then, though. COG is, as hogarth pointed out, available to Monks at 1st level. It's of only questionable use, though, since half of it is superseded by IWM and the other half almost never comes up, so the monk might be better waiting until 6th level to get it and just punching for those first few levels. Depends on the monk, really.
The monk cannot "bane" and "extra attack" with ki in the same round, as both are activated as swift actions.
You're right again. I'm going to have to go correct the monk in my game. I had forgotten "Each of these powers is activated as a swift action.", so he's been able to make an extra attack and boost his AC...
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End result: As I see it, the general concept still works, but it takes a few more levels to actually get up to full strength, and has one fewer attacks than I originally thought. Still wouldn't want to be beat on by one, but a bit less scary.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
"Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything."
Right you are! I was only looking at the bonus feats mentioned specifically in the monk of the empty hand entry. doof...
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match.
I see what you're doing here Bobson, but as a GM I'd personally rule against this reading. Instead I'd read it as find the weapon in the weapon list that most closely fits the bill for what you using as an improvised weapon - then apply the rules from the monk of the empty hand:
- Find 2x4
- Determine its kinda like a greatclub
- Determine that a greatclub is used like a quarterstaff by the monk of the empty hand
- Use the 2x4 as a 1d6/1d6
That aside - even then the monk of the empty hand has good potential. I think I'll try it.
I see what you're doing here Bobson, but as a GM I'd personally rule against this reading. Instead I'd read it as find the weapon in the weapon list that most closely fits the bill for what you using as an improvised weapon - then apply the rules from the monk of the empty hand:
- Find 2x4
- Determine its kinda like a greatclub
- Determine that a greatclub is used like a quarterstaff by the monk of the empty hand
- Use the 2x4 as a 1d6/1d6
I can see that reading. I'd rule it the other way (obviously), but I can certainly see where you're coming from with it. And a 2x4 certainly could be quarterstaffish if you were holding it in the middle, rather than from the end, so it works logically, too. I'll FAQ it in hopes a developer will eventually get around to clarifying what the RAI is.
Off-topic question from a swede: What the heck's a 2x4?
Off-topic question from a swede: What the heck's a 2x4?
A large piece of wood. A wrestler named Hacksaw Jim Duggan used to carry them to the ring. Link to a pic of Hacksaw and his 2x4
Off-topic question from a swede: What the heck's a 2x4?A large piece of wood.
...with a cross-section which is 5 cm x 10 cm.
Ah, I see! Huh. Interesting coincidence, I've actually been beaten with one of those. Not exactly by some master of inner serenity though.
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My current character is a Empty Hand Monk of the Sacred Mountain. I'll swear to you that he plays NOTHING like most monks you've seen. He wears armor, fights with a (Wooden) Training Greatsword, a Bladed Heavy Combat Scabbard, and has an answer for pretty much any situation. I have a half page of notebook scratching that details what his AC would be in any given round as well due to how easy it is for me to slip him into and out of unarmored combat, and all the different variables between ki, bastion stance, magic effects and so forth.
I love him, he isn't quite the powerhouse that the Wizard is in terms of damage, but TBH I have him built more as a Tank than anything else.
DURUS BACLEOUS CR 7
Male Human Monk (Monk of the Empty Hand, Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 8
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hero Points 2
Init +2; Senses Perception +9
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DEFENSE
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Armored AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural)
Unarmored AC 18, touch 17, flat-footed 16 (+2 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 59 (8d8+16)
Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +9
Defensive Abilities Iron Limb Defense
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OFFENSE
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Spd 40 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Training Sword +10/+5 (2d6+5/20/x2) and
Masterwork Cold Iron Brass Knuckles +10/+5 (1d10+3/20/x2) and
Masterwork Combat scabbard, sharpened, heavy blade +6/+1 (1d4+3/18-20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +6/+6/+1/+1, Ki Strike, Magic, Ki Weapons: Unarmed Damage, Versatile Improvisation
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STATISTICS
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Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 14
Base Atk +6; CMB +11 (+13 Disarming); CMD 21 (23 vs. Disarm)
Feats Catch Off-Guard, Cosmopolitan: Knowledge: Engineering, Use Magic Device, Equipment Trick (heavy blade scabbard), Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improvised Weapon Mastery, Quick Draw, Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 17), Toughness +8
Traits Egorian School Apprentice, World Traveler: Diplomacy
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +10, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +6, Fly +1, Heal +5, Knowledge: Engineering +9, Knowledge: History +4, Knowledge: Religion +5, Perception +9, Ride +6, Sense Motive +8, Stealth +6, Swim +7, Use Magic Device +11
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ AC Bonus +5, Bandages of Rapid Recovery, Bastion Stance (except mind-affecting or teleportation) (Ex), Bellows, Fast Movement (+20'), Hero Points (2), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Pool (Su), Ki Throw (Ex), Maneuver Training (Ex), Ram, portable, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d10), Wholeness of Body (8 HP/use) (Su)
Combat Gear +1 Silversheen Training Sword, Masterwork Combat scabbard, sharpened, heavy blade, Masterwork Cold Iron Brass Knuckles, +2 Dragonhide Armored Coat; Other Gear Acid (flask), Alchemist's fire (flask) (3), Bag, Waterproof (29 @ 21.5 lbs), Bandages of Rapid Recovery (5), Bellows, Blanket, winter, Caltrops, Chain (10 ft.), Chalk, 1 piece (2), Chalkboard, Coffee (per cup) (20), Coffee, Mwangi (per cup) (5), Cooking kit, Copy of a Key, Drug, Dwarven Fire Ale (2), Fishhook, Folding Chair, Hammer, Handy Haversack (52 @ 108.5 lbs), Kahve (per cup) (5), Lamp, common, Menacing Amulet of Mighty Fists, Mushroom Vest, Oil (1-pint flask) (2), Oil of Shillelagh (8), Pot, iron, Potion of Cure Light Wounds (6), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (3), Potion of Magic Fang (4), Potion of Protection From Evil (6), Pulley, Ram, portable, Rations, trail (per day) (15), Rope, hempen (50 ft.), Shaving kit, Smokestick (2), Soap (per lb), Stove can, Tanglefoot bag, Thunderstone (2), Whistle, Signal, Wolfsbane
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Bastion Stance (except mind-affecting or teleportation) (Ex) Cannot be moved if you start and end the round in the same space.
Bellows +1 Survival to start fires.
Catch Off-Guard Proficient with improvised melee weapons. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against your improvised weapons.
Egorian School Apprentice You gain a +3 trait bonus on Knowledge (engineering) checks and a +2 trait bonus on Perception checks to find secret doors or traps in buildings built in the Egorian School style.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +6/+6/+1/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
Hero Points (2) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Improvised Weapon Mastery Proficient with all improvised weapons, increase their damage category 1 step, and grant them a threat range of 19-20.
Iron Limb Defense (Ex) +2 Shield AC if you start and end your turn in the same space.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your WIS modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) At 4th level, ki strike allows a monk's unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Ki Throw (Ex) 1 Ki point: +20' range increment for thrown weapons or shuriken.
Ki Weapons: Unarmed Damage (Su) 1 Ki: Improvised weapon deals damage as unarmed strike.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Ram, portable +2 to STR checks to break open a door, and allows a second helper (+2).
Stunning Fist (8/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Versatile Improvisation (Ex) Improvised weapons can change damage type.
Wholeness of Body (8 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
@Carbon D Metric:
Kudos for the great name, and I like the monk you've presented. I've played a pretty fun monk of the drunken mountain before that I remember fondly.
Could you please explain how you got all the feats you have on the character? I've not been able to figure out how you have Improved Disarm and Improvised Weapon Mastery (either of which, but not both of which could be a monk level 6 bonus feat).
Thank you James Jacobs! As posted by him
The monk of the empty hand treats improvised weapons as if she were proficient in them, and can wield normal weapons as improvised weapons. This effectively has the same end effect as the Catch Off-Guard feat, but isn't a feat and thus doesn't use up a feat slot since it's a variant class ability. Thus, they do not take a nonproficient penalty when using improvised weapons. The text is not as clear as it could have been, I guess, but hopefully common sense can step in to bolster that if someone doesn't read this post?(We COULD have simply said, "The monk of the empty hand gains "Catch Off-Guard" as a bonus feat, I guess, but that would have lost the flavor bit about how they often wield normal weapons as improvised weapons.)