I've adopted a couple of Pathfinder rules into my epic-level 3.5 game (extra +1 hit point per level of favored class, extra feat every two levels rather than every three) and am considering adding the extra +2 to ability initial ability scores that I see the core PC races get. I'm wondering though if all the NPCs and monsters get the same extra +2 to their ability scores over what they got in 3.5, or if only PCs (or only the core PC races, whether PCs or not) get them? Thanks!
All members of race x gets the modifiers of race x, whether PC or NPC.
Thanks, Bruno. That answers my question in part. Did Pathfinder though give every race an extra +2 on initial ability scores like it did to the core PC races?
No. What Pathfinder did was give specific racial modifiers to each core PC race which basically comes out to a +2 to two specific stats and a minus 2 to one specific stat. as opposed to the +2/-2 of D20. Certain races like Humans and Half Humans instead received a floating +2 which could be applied to any stat. Anything else was either modified individually or left as it was.All members of race x gets the modifiers of race x, whether PC or NPC.Thanks, Bruno. That answers my question in part. Did Pathfinder though give every race an extra +2 on initial ability scores like it did to the core PC races?
Ah, so it is just the core PC races that get the extra +2. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks, Lazar.
Did Paizo ever discuss why they granted the extra +2? Did it come from the notion that there's a reason that the core races tend to dominant the world?
Actually, they tweaked monsters and PC races alike as needed to "re-balance" the game.
A goblin, for instance, got –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma in 3.5 and now gets –2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, –2 Charisma. The minotaur, on the other hand, is the same between editions.
You'd have to look at this case-by-case to determine where Pathfinder deviates from 3.5.
No. What Pathfinder did was give specific racial modifiers to each core PC race which basically comes out to a +2 to two specific stats and a minus 2 to one specific stat. as opposed to the +2/-2 of D20. Certain races like Humans and Half Humans instead received a floating +2 which could be applied to any stat. Anything else was either modified individually or left as it was.All members of race x gets the modifiers of race x, whether PC or NPC.Thanks, Bruno. That answers my question in part. Did Pathfinder though give every race an extra +2 on initial ability scores like it did to the core PC races?
I see that they did add the extra +2 to duergar, but they changed the drow, dropping the +2 to Intelligence. The noble drow though gets the +2 to Intelligence and picks up another +2 on Dex, for a total of +4 on Dex, so it looks like the noble drow is the equivalent of the 3.5 drow and does get the extra +2. I see though, on the other hand, that the noble drow has extra spell-like abilities, so it's actually a bit better than the 3.5 drow. I don't see anything thought about additional CR or LA so it's hard to compare.
I see that a silver wyrlming starts with an extra +4 (on Dexterity). By adult, however, the silver dragon has lost the +4, and by great wyrm it suffers a -4 penalty on Dex. These Dex changes might just come from changing size as the 3.0 and 3.5 dragons didn't change Dexterity as they got bigger unlike most creatures. All of its other ability scores, however, suffer too: by great wyrm the Pathfinder silver dragon suffers -4 penalty on all its ability scores compared to a 3.5 silver great wyrm.
An ogre's ability scores, on the other hand, didn't change at all. An orc has the same ability scores, although Paizo switched Int and Wis. A storm giant's didn't change at all. So it looks like Paizo might have applied the +2 to subraces of core PC races, but not generally to other races, at least based on my quick, non-random sample. :-P
All of its other ability scores, however, suffer too: by great wyrm the Pathfinder silver dragon suffers -4 penalty on all its ability scores compared to a 3.5 silver great wyrm.
It's also CR 22 instead of CR 26, which mitigates that "suffering" quite a bit :)
All the dragons also got a number of new special abilities compared to the 3.5 versions.
Actually, they tweaked monsters and PC races alike as needed to "re-balance" the game.
A goblin, for instance, got –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma in 3.5 and now gets –2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, –2 Charisma. The minotaur, on the other hand, is the same between editions.
You'd have to look at this case-by-case to determine where Pathfinder deviates from 3.5.
Thanks, Erian. I was headed to goblins when I got sidetracked by storm giants. I think you've given a better summary of the overall changes than my initial thought that perhaps they'd just added +2 to everyone or just added +2 to core PC races. Thanks. :)
All of its other ability scores, however, suffer too: by great wyrm the Pathfinder silver dragon suffers -4 penalty on all its ability scores compared to a 3.5 silver great wyrm.
It's also CR 22 instead of CR 26, which mitigates that "suffering" quite a bit :)
All the dragons also got a number of new special abilities compared to the 3.5 versions.
Thanks Are. I hadn't noticed the changed CR. I prefer more higher-CR creatures since the characters in the campaign I run have reached 27th and 28th levels.
Do they still have the concept of level adjustment? I looked under the drow and didn't see any.
I searched the online Pathfinder OGC and the only mentions of level adjustment I found came from fan-created creatures.
Do they still have the concept of level adjustment? I looked under the drow and didn't see any.
I searched the online Pathfinder OGC and the only mentions of level adjustment I found came from fan-created creatures.
They do, but it's simplified. Essentially, you add the CR of the creature as the level adjustment. For example, a gnoll is CR 1. You could play a gnoll at level 1 with no class levels, or gnoll with 1 level of a PC class at 2nd level.
An Ogre would be consider about a 3rd level character, and an ogre with one level of Fighter to be 4th level; so his "level adjustment" is effectively +3; including racial HD and everything.
Now, all of this is subject to GM discretion, as some creatures may not work with the GM's game dynamic (maybe playing a succubus with at-will charming is unsettling for your GM), and not all creatures are suitable for PCs ("You want to play a gelatinous cube!?"); but the system is pretty simple in this regard.
As for the drow, Paizo was kind enough to provide a version that's PC friendly, and the Noble Drow, which are pretty much just an NPC race (and would have the +CR adjustment).
I've adopted a couple of Pathfinder rules into my epic-level 3.5 game (extra +1 hit point per level of favored class, extra feat every two levels rather than every three) and am considering adding the extra +2 to ability initial ability scores that I see the core PC races get. I'm wondering though if all the NPCs and monsters get the same extra +2 to their ability scores over what they got in 3.5, or if only PCs (or only the core PC races, whether PCs or not) get them? Thanks!
I took the feat progression but not much else; I've had to hand-convert a lot of the Pathfinder feats because I have no intention of trying to convert all of my 3.5e material to use CMB/CMD or the pared-down skills.
I didn't incorporate the extra hit points, since there's a lot of feats that address this: Toughness (SRD), Epic Toughness (SRD), Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior/Libris Mortis) and a feat from Dicefreaks that I renamed Epic Improved Toughness that changes Improved Toughness's bonus to +2/HD from +1/HD.
Pathfinder's version of Toughness is essentially Improved Toughness, and they don't have the lame "you get +3 hp" version from the SRD; I've included the Pathfinder version as "Toughness (alternate)," though nobody has noticed this yet and taken it :)
Personally, I think the SRD Toughness and Epic Toughness are equivalently weak - you're trading a short term gain for something that's of little value in the long run.
In any case, it's not like the party's hurting for hit points; I think the fighter has something like 1500hp, and the glass heel of the group, the wizard, still has over 400hp.
So what are you doing as far as spells? Are you allowing new spells from the Pathfinder rule set? I do, and I (with warning to my players) included the caveat in mind blank that it blocks true seeing from seeing invisible creatures.
Edit:
Thanks Are. I hadn't noticed the changed CR. I prefer more higher-CR creatures since the characters in the campaign I run have reached 27th and 28th levels.
There's several ways to bump up creatures so that they're a challenge.
I make heavy use of hit die advancement and templates; the Advanced Bestiary from Green Ronin is awesome for this, and the Epic Pseudonatural and Paragon templates from the ELH do wonders.
In addition, there's a scary book out there called Immortals Handbook Vol. 1: Bestiary that has obscenely high CR creatures. Many of them too high for even me, but the size advancement rules are great and there's cool rules for generic advancement of golems. Note that golems made using the Immortals Handbook rules are deadly hard due to amazing AC, SR and DR.
Do they still have the concept of level adjustment? I looked under the drow and didn't see any.
I searched the online Pathfinder OGC and the only mentions of level adjustment I found came from fan-created creatures.
They do, but it's simplified. Essentially, you add the CR of the creature as the level adjustment. For example, a gnoll is CR 1. You could play a gnoll at level 1 with no class levels, or gnoll with 1 level of a PC class at 2nd level.
An Ogre would be consider about a 3rd level character, and an ogre with one level of Fighter to be 4th level; so his "level adjustment" is effectively +3; including racial HD and everything.
Now, all of this is subject to GM discretion, as some creatures may not work with the GM's game dynamic (maybe playing a succubus with at-will charming is unsettling for your GM), and not all creatures are suitable for PCs ("You want to play a gelatinous cube!?"); but the system is pretty simple in this regard.
As for the drow, Paizo was kind enough to provide a version that's PC friendly, and the Noble Drow, which are pretty much just an NPC race (and would have the +CR adjustment).
Are you sure about that with the drow? I'm looking at their sample noble drow and it's a 3rd-level cleric with a CR of 3. It doesn't appear to have any level adjustment build into its CR.
I meant to mention too that they eliminated the drow's SR, which goes all the way back (as magic resistance) to 1st Ed.
Are you sure about that with the drow? I'm looking at their sample noble drow and it's a 3rd-level cleric with a CR of 3. It doesn't appear to have any level adjustment build into its CR.
Pathfinder has reduced the CR for classed characters. A Human 3rd-level cleric would be CR 2, so the Noble Drow is 1 CR higher.
I've adopted a couple of Pathfinder rules into my epic-level 3.5 game (extra +1 hit point per level of favored class, extra feat every two levels rather than every three) and am considering adding the extra +2 to ability initial ability scores that I see the core PC races get. I'm wondering though if all the NPCs and monsters get the same extra +2 to their ability scores over what they got in 3.5, or if only PCs (or only the core PC races, whether PCs or not) get them? Thanks!I took the feat progression but not much else; I've had to hand-convert a lot of the Pathfinder feats because I have no intention of trying to convert all of my 3.5e material to use CMB/CMD or the pared-down skills.
I didn't incorporate the extra hit points, since there's a lot of feats that address this: Toughness (SRD), Epic Toughness (SRD), Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior/Libris Mortis) and a feat from Dicefreaks that I renamed Epic Improved Toughness that changes Improved Toughness's bonus to +2/HD from +1/HD.
Pathfinder's version of Toughness is essentially Improved Toughness, and they don't have the lame "you get +3 hp" version from the SRD; I've included the Pathfinder version as "Toughness (alternate)," though nobody has noticed this yet and taken it :)
Personally, I think the SRD Toughness and Epic Toughness are equivalently weak - you're trading a short term gain for something that's of little value in the long run.
In any case, it's not like the party's hurting for hit points; I think the fighter has something like 1500hp, and the glass heel of the group, the wizard, still has over 400hp.
So what are you doing as far as spells? Are you allowing new spells from the Pathfinder rule set? I do, and I (with warning to my players) included the caveat in mind blank that it blocks true seeing from seeing invisible creatures.
Edit:
Thanks Are. I hadn't noticed the changed CR. I prefer more higher-CR creatures since the characters...
Let's see. I like your idea for an Improved Epic Toughness. Regular old Toughness has the virtue of granting 3 points even if you take it at 1st level and three points every time you take it. Epic Toughness has a similar virtue. You can take Improved Toughness only once. Do you apply the same rule to your Improved Epic Toughness?
I use the retraining rules from PHB II so a character could take Toughness at 1st level and then retrain to Improved Toughness at 4th level. I pretty much allow Improved Toughness to serve as a prerequisite for anything that needs Toughness as a prerequisite because now there are just so many great feats available.
I haven't looked at any Pathfinder feats or spells. I've spent the last decade creating tens of pages of feats and spells for my 3rd Ed/3.5 campaign, plus the Wizards books are full of more nice feats and spells. When the alpha version of Pathfinder came out I downloaded it and noticed the +1 hit point per level of favored class rule and the feat per two level rule. I saw though the major changes they made to the barbarian and decided that Pathfinder just changed too much for me to invest all the time revamping everything, so I haven't paid much attention to it since.
Someone invited me to join a Pathfinder game locally a couple of months ago and while I didn't attend (and the person got mad at me for not wanting to switch, making me even less inclined to switch) that got me to thinking about it again. With me creating new feats all the time I thought about changing the feat progression but didn't want to revamp everything. Just in the past couple of weeks though I decided to allow the Pathfinder progression and just revamp slowly, letting the PCs go first. I actually added the +1/level to hit points a few weeks before that. I didn't notice the extra +1 skill point/level until this morning, or I probably would have added it when I added the +1 hit point/level.
What level have your characters reached that they have 400-1500? My player's characters fall more in the 150-400 range.
Is the Immortals Handbook a Dicefreaks book that uses their alternative rules?
A note on monster CR's and LA's: LA's no longer exists, because only the core rulebook races are PC races. Anything else is a matter of DM discretion - stuff in the bestiary isn't designed to be used by players, generally. CR = LA is more of a DM tool to determine around where an NPC of a certain monster race would fit in, but it isn't exact. It CAN be used if you want to have monster PC's, but as said, it's on a DM basis.
If I'm allowed to speculate, this is probably to shift the focus towards PC races, and to not forcing the DM into allowing monster characters due to the rulebook having exact rules for them. The LA rules of 3.5 where so broken and weird there was no use in having them anyway.
So yeah, you can have monster PC's, and LA should be about equal to CR, but it's still a DM decision to 100% and is more of an art than a science.
A note on the drow: The regular drow is made to be balanced against the PC races decently, so it doesn't need an LA or anything like that. The noble drow is CR +1 or +2 IIRC, as it has really good ability scores and a few game changing abilities (such as levitation). The noble drow isn't balanced for use as a PC race, regardless of LA or the like, you're going to get issues unless you balance with that character in mind.
There's several ways to bump up creatures so that they're a challenge.
I make heavy use of hit die advancement and templates; the Advanced Bestiary from Green Ronin is awesome for this, and the Epic Pseudonatural and Paragon templates from the ELH do wonders.
In addition, there's a scary book out there called Immortals Handbook Vol. 1: Bestiary that has obscenely high CR creatures. Many of them too high for even me, but the size advancement rules are great and there's cool rules for generic advancement of golems. Note that golems made using the Immortals Handbook rules are deadly hard due to amazing AC, SR and DR.
I thought the Advanced Bestiary sounded familiar, so I looked it up online. When I saw the cover art I was sure I already owned it, and went straight to the box where I keep it. :-D
For one upcoming side adventure I took the old 1st Ed solo adventure, Maze of the Riddling Minotaur, and converted everything to 3.5. I advanced all the creatures in various ways. Harpies got class levels; the wyvern got racial hit dice. The lion got the paragon template. :-D I also added an abomination who is THE minotaur, using the rules in ELH for abominations. I created him when they were only about 19th level so I need to update him before they meet him or he will disappoint. I think instead of advancing him by outsider hit dice I might just give him 10 levels of barbarian. The rage should make him pretty scary.
On their journey to the labyrinth they ran into creature from the beginnings of time, guarding a portal to Stygia. I started with a sisuitl (from Stormwrack). I advanced it to its maximum hit dice, then added the multi-headed template from Savage Species and gave it the maximum number of heads for gargantuan size. Then I added the paragon template, and gave it about 50 levels of sorcerer. I mean they weren't supposed to fight it (and they didn't) but I like to stat things out. I had more time in those days too.
Let's see. I like your idea for an Improved Epic Toughness. Regular old Toughness has the virtue of granting 3 points even if you take it at 1st level and three points every time you take it. Epic Toughness has a similar virtue. You can take Improved Toughness only once. Do you apply the same rule to your Improved Epic Toughness?
I use the retraining rules from PHB II so a character could take Toughness at 1st level and then retrain to Improved Toughness at 4th level. I pretty much allow Improved Toughness to serve as a prerequisite for anything that needs Toughness as a prerequisite because now there are just so many great feats available.
I allow the retraining, but they rarely feel like burning a week of game time to do so, so it doesn't happen very often.
And neither Improved nor Epic Improved toughness stack, but since it's +2 hp/HD, they do the job nicely; it's like taking Great Constitution 4 times.
I haven't looked at any Pathfinder feats or spells. I've spent the last decade creating tens of pages of feats and spells for my 3rd Ed/3.5 campaign, plus the Wizards books are full of more nice feats and spells. When the alpha version of Pathfinder came out I downloaded it and noticed the +1 hit point per level of favored class rule and the feat per two level rule. I saw though the major changes they made to the barbarian and decided that Pathfinder just changed too much for me to invest all the time revamping everything, so I haven't paid much attention to it since.
That was my first impression, and Pathfinder is definitely a different game than 3.5e, even if it's similar. For the most part, however, things are pretty compatible; I have no problem pulling Pathfinder monsters for my 3.5e campaign.
Someone invited me to join a Pathfinder game locally a couple of months ago and while I didn't attend (and the person got mad at me for not wanting to switch, making me even less inclined to switch) that got me to thinking about it again. With me creating new feats all the time I thought about changing the feat progression but didn't want to revamp everything. Just in the past couple of weeks though I decided to allow the Pathfinder progression and just revamp slowly, letting the PCs go first. I actually added the +1/level to hit points a few weeks before that. I didn't notice the extra +1 skill point/level until this morning, or I probably would have added it when I added the +1 hit point/level.
I've switched over for the low-level campaign I'm running, but my old campaign is still 3.5e with Pathfinder stuff. My players actually prefer 3.5e to either Pathfinder or 4e, but long term I'm sure we'll just go with Pathfinder.
Personally, I believe that 4e killed our convention campaign.
What level have your characters reached that they have 400-1500? My player's characters fall more in the 150-400 range.
They range from 53 to 62, if I recall properly. We've been playing this campaign since 2006.
Is the Immortals Handbook a Dicefreaks book that uses their alternative rules?
No, but The Gates of Hell is; I have a PDF of that - it's cool if a bit underpowered for my campaign. But that's easy to fix, just treat the creatures as aspects of the real Lords of the Nine. At one point I just pulled a whole pile of feats from Dicefreaks and added them to my feats compendium. [Metamagic] Spell-Like Ability is one of my favorites.
I thought the Advanced Bestiary sounded familiar, so I looked it up online. When I saw the cover art I was sure I already owned it, and went straight to the box where I keep it. :-D
Yeah, I use that a lot, and Tome of Horrors, and all the Pathfinder material. Tons of good stuff out there.
For one upcoming side adventure I took the old 1st Ed solo adventure, Maze of the Riddling Minotaur, and converted everything to 3.5. I advanced all the creatures in various ways. Harpies got class levels; the wyvern got racial hit dice. The lion got the paragon template. :-D I also added an abomination who is THE minotaur, using the rules in ELH for abominations. I created him when they were only about 19th level so I need to update him before they meet him or he will disappoint. I think instead of advancing him by outsider hit dice I might just give him 10 levels of barbarian. The rage should make him pretty scary.
On their journey to the labyrinth they ran into creature from the beginnings of time, guarding a portal to Stygia. I started with a sisuitl (from Stormwrack). I advanced it to its maximum hit dice, then added the multi-headed template from Savage Species and gave it the maximum number of heads for gargantuan size. Then I added the paragon template, and gave it about 50 levels of sorcerer. I mean they weren't supposed to fight it (and they didn't) but I like to stat things out. I had more time in those days too.
Right. That's why I avoid class levels typically; it's a lot more work than adding a template.
For the current encounter they've got coming up, they're about to interrupt a sacrifice (a group of 13 or so cyclops cultists all in the range CR16-28, so it's a cakewalk, even though four of them are ur-priests, one of them cleric 14/ur-priest 14), who believe that a mu spore is a god (ELH mu spore, 35HD/CR21), but don't realize that the mu spore they're worshiping is actually two (the second is 75HD/CR31), both of which were spawned off of a dormant Pathfinder mu spore (epic pseudonatural HD69/CR51).
Of course, what they're really after is the hero they've heard is sleeping at the center of the ruined city, guarded by a dragon. The dragon is actually an advanced jabberwocky with epic summoner levels - so it'll be a jabberwocky with an eidolon. The hero's long dead, but he has one of the cubes of Nex, and his journal will help them a LOT with their quest. Haven't statted out the jabberwocky yet.
In any case the real prize for them in all of this is the ruined dwarven city that dates back before the cataclysm that they're trying to reverse the effects of.
So it's a bit involved.
Let's see. I like your idea for an Improved Epic Toughness. Regular old Toughness has the virtue of granting 3 points even if you take it at 1st level and three points every time you take it. Epic Toughness has a similar virtue. You can take Improved Toughness only once. Do you apply the same rule to your Improved Epic Toughness?
I use the retraining rules from PHB II so a character could take Toughness at 1st level and then retrain to Improved Toughness at 4th level. I pretty much allow Improved Toughness to serve as a prerequisite for anything that needs Toughness as a prerequisite because now there are just so many great feats available.
I allow the retraining, but they rarely feel like burning a week of game time to do so, so it doesn't happen very often.
And neither Improved nor Epic Improved toughness stack, but since it's +2 hp/HD, they do the job nicely; it's like taking Great Constitution 4 times.
I haven't looked at any Pathfinder feats or spells. I've spent the last decade creating tens of pages of feats and spells for my 3rd Ed/3.5 campaign, plus the Wizards books are full of more nice feats and spells. When the alpha version of Pathfinder came out I downloaded it and noticed the +1 hit point per level of favored class rule and the feat per two level rule. I saw though the major changes they made to the barbarian and decided that Pathfinder just changed too much for me to invest all the time revamping everything, so I haven't paid much attention to it since.That was my first impression, and Pathfinder is definitely a different game than 3.5e, even if it's similar. For the most part, however, things are pretty compatible; I have no problem pulling Pathfinder monsters for my 3.5e campaign.
Someone invited me to join a Pathfinder game locally a couple of months ago and while I didn't attend (and the person got mad at me for not wanting to switch, making me even less inclined to switch) that...
I don't require any retraining time because I don't require any training time.
Does your Improved Epic Toughness require Improved Toughness?
Does Pathfinder have epic creatures? Does it have an epic mu spore?
Which eidolon do you mean? I see in Wikipedia:
"In the game Dungeons and Dragons a monster called a Rogue Eidolon exists. The accompanying flavour-text tells that these creatures are animated statues of ancient cults to various dark gods, and that they were eventually driven insane by their fraction of sentience. (Monster Manual II) Other books from D&D 3.5 also mention Eidolons; Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations mentions an Elder Eidolon and Frostburn: Mastering the Perils of Ice and Snow mentions a Rimefore Eidolon. The Elder Eidolon is an animated stone carving but the Rimefire Eidolon is a described as a chunk of ice surrounded by blue flame walking on thin tendrils. In the Eberron campaign setting Eidolons are described as similar to illusions that inhabit the fringes of the plane Dal Quor: The Region of Dreams.
In the game Pathfinder there is a class called the Summoner which gains the ability to summon a special companion called an Eidolon, which can take on various forms based on attributes assigned to it. It is an Outsider, which implies that it is composed of spiritual essence, usually that of the Outer Planes."
Oh, I found the mu spore. It is a core critter. I see that core creatures go up only to CR 25 with the tarrasque.
he is referring to the summoner eidolon. since he mentioned the jabberwocky has summoner levels.
Do they still have the concept of level adjustment? I looked under the drow and didn't see any.
I searched the online Pathfinder OGC and the only mentions of level adjustment I found came from fan-created creatures.
They do, but it's simplified. Essentially, you add the CR of the creature as the level adjustment. For example, a gnoll is CR 1. You could play a gnoll at level 1 with no class levels, or gnoll with 1 level of a PC class at 2nd level.
An Ogre would be consider about a 3rd level character, and an ogre with one level of Fighter to be 4th level; so his "level adjustment" is effectively +3; including racial HD and everything.
Now, all of this is subject to GM discretion, as some creatures may not work with the GM's game dynamic (maybe playing a succubus with at-will charming is unsettling for your GM), and not all creatures are suitable for PCs ("You want to play a gelatinous cube!?"); but the system is pretty simple in this regard.
As for the drow, Paizo was kind enough to provide a version that's PC friendly, and the Noble Drow, which are pretty much just an NPC race (and would have the +CR adjustment).
Personally I think the quick and dirty rules paizo laid down to play monsters are terrible, the creatures are typically not laid down as efficiently as a player's character.
A gnoll with point buy scores is way better than a 1st lvl character, let alone a minotaur 1st level fighter in a party of lvl 5's, that is not even taking into account that the minotaur can close the gap in class levels in time.
I don't require any retraining time because I don't require any training time.
I don't have training time either; level gain is instant (though I don't allow the new spell levels, etc. until after a rest), but if they want to retrain a feat, I do require the training time from the PHBII.
Does your Improved Epic Toughness require Improved Toughness?
In all fairness, it's not mine, it's from Dicefreaks, though I do require Improved Toughness as a prerequisite. Not that it's really necessary, every single one of my players took Improved Toughness, in my mind it's a no-brainer.
Does Pathfinder have epic creatures? Does it have an epic mu spore?
I see that you found the mu spore. Pathfinder does have a few epic creatures; in reality any creature with a CR over 20 is technically epic. And of course you can use any of the creatures from the d20 SRD with little effort.
Note that you can advance any creature by hit dice, but determining its CR in Pathfinder is not straightforward; I still use the 3.5e rules for determining the CR of an advanced creature because it's way simpler and the variation isn't very much from what I see.
You can see d20srd.org for the table about CR of advanced monsters. I use that table very, very often; I find the Pathfinder version of advancing monsters very cumbersome, even if it may be more accurate - and at super-advanced CR ratings, it's all kind of approximate anyways.
Which eidolon do you mean?
Mojorat answered for me already, but yes, I do mean the Summoner's eidolon (as in the Summoner from the Advanced Player's Guide). But I do like the elder eidolon from Lords of Madness, it has a very Lovecraftian feel to it and I use them in my campaign.
Note that the core races did not just get a +2 to a stat. The formula is +2 to a physical stat, +2 to a mental stat and -2 to a stat in either category.
There are no player races with a bonus to two phyical stats or two mental stats.
Note that you can advance any creature by hit dice, but determining its CR in Pathfinder is not straightforward; I still use the 3.5e rules for determining the CR of an advanced creature because it's way simpler and the variation isn't very much from what I see.
You can see d20srd.org for the table about CR of advanced monsters. I use that table very, very often; I find the Pathfinder version of advancing monsters very cumbersome, even if it may be more accurate - and at super-advanced CR ratings, it's all kind of approximate anyways.
I agree completely with this. The 3.5 method is much easier to remember, and much easier to perform. I haven't really checked if there is major differences in the final result, though. However, going from table to table and back again and then to another table is far too much work for a monster that will die in 2-4 rounds.
The only thing to look out for when using the 3.5 method is this: Don't combine advancing a monster by HD and advancing that same monster by non-associated class levels. That gets broken really fast (although it is great fun :P).
he is referring to the summoner eidolon. since he mentioned the jabberwocky has summoner levels.
Thanks, Mojo. I looked for a jabberwocky in the Pathfinder OGC, but nobody's done one yet. I definitely like the idea of taking it from Robert Lewis Carrol like Gary Gygax did with the vorpal sword.
Do they still have the concept of level adjustment? I looked under the drow and didn't see any.
I searched the online Pathfinder OGC and the only mentions of level adjustment I found came from fan-created creatures.
They do, but it's simplified. Essentially, you add the CR of the creature as the level adjustment. For example, a gnoll is CR 1. You could play a gnoll at level 1 with no class levels, or gnoll with 1 level of a PC class at 2nd level.
An Ogre would be consider about a 3rd level character, and an ogre with one level of Fighter to be 4th level; so his "level adjustment" is effectively +3; including racial HD and everything.
Now, all of this is subject to GM discretion, as some creatures may not work with the GM's game dynamic (maybe playing a succubus with at-will charming is unsettling for your GM), and not all creatures are suitable for PCs ("You want to play a gelatinous cube!?"); but the system is pretty simple in this regard.
As for the drow, Paizo was kind enough to provide a version that's PC friendly, and the Noble Drow, which are pretty much just an NPC race (and would have the +CR adjustment).
Personally I think the quick and dirty rules paizo laid down to play monsters are terrible, the creatures are typically not laid down as efficiently as a player's character.
A gnoll with point buy scores is way better than a 1st lvl character, let alone a minotaur 1st level fighter in a party of lvl 5's, that is not even taking into account that the minotaur can close the gap in class levels in time.
I'm not familiar with the Pathfinder advancement rules beyond what people have said here, but from what you've said I'm glad I'm sticking with 3.5
I don't require any retraining time because I don't require any training time.I don't have training time either; level gain is instant (though I don't allow the new spell levels, etc. until after a rest), but if they want to retrain a feat, I do require the training time from the PHBII.
Does your Improved Epic Toughness require Improved Toughness?In all fairness, it's not mine, it's from Dicefreaks, though I do require Improved Toughness as a prerequisite. Not that it's really necessary, every single one of my players took Improved Toughness, in my mind it's a no-brainer.
Does Pathfinder have epic creatures? Does it have an epic mu spore?I see that you found the mu spore. Pathfinder does have a few epic creatures; in reality any creature with a CR over 20 is technically epic. And of course you can use any of the creatures from the d20 SRD with little effort.
Note that you can advance any creature by hit dice, but determining its CR in Pathfinder is not straightforward; I still use the 3.5e rules for determining the CR of an advanced creature because it's way simpler and the variation isn't very much from what I see.
You can see d20srd.org for the table about CR of advanced monsters. I use that table very, very often; I find the Pathfinder version of advancing monsters very cumbersome, even if it may be more accurate - and at super-advanced CR ratings, it's all kind of approximate anyways.
Which eidolon do you mean?Mojorat answered for me already, but yes, I do mean the Summoner's eidolon (as in the Summoner from the Advanced Player's Guide). But I do like the elder eidolon from Lords of Madness, it has a very Lovecraftian feel to it and I use them in my campaign.
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If you don't have training time, why did you mention that your players mostly won't retrain because of the week of game time it takes? :-)
I allow instant training too, and require time to memorize spell, although not resting 8 hours just to memorize a few extra spell. Actually as I recall there's a rule (perhaps 3.0 rather than 3.5) that allows dropping a spell and memorizing one in its place. You take the total memorization time, divide it by the total number of spells you have, and then multiply it by the number of spells you're memorizing, or something like that. Anyway I allow characters to get new feats and spontaneous spell slots (including spontaneously casting a cure spell out of a new clerical slot) right away. Sometimes if the PCs are getting pounded in a fight and we break for the week, and I award experience for various items from the session, I'll let them level up mid-fight.
I briefly looked at the eidolon and it looks complicated but interesting.
I have the Lords of Madness on my Amazon.com Wish List. What is the CR of the elder eidolon?
Elder Eidolon is a template that adds +3 CR.
The Jabberwock is in Pathfinder's Bestiary 2, as a CR 23 creature.
There's also a Lesser Jabberwock (at CR 20) in Pathfinder 36: Sound of a Thousand Screams.
Elder Eidolon is a template that adds +3 CR.
The Jabberwock is in Pathfinder's Bestiary 2, as a CR 23 creature.
There's also a Lesser Jabberwock (at CR 20) in Pathfinder 36: Sound of a Thousand Screams.
Thanks, Are. I looked up "jabberwocky" not realizing they dropped the "y." In a way it's too bad because I thought it was something that he was going to create at CR 50 or CR 70 or such.
What's DR/vorpal? I mean, I suppose it's DR that a vorpal sword can overcome, but do they specifically explain it anywhere?
Oh, so elder eidolon is just a template? Does it have the undead type or what?
Is Pathfinder 36 part of the monthly pathfinder series? Is it monthly? I recall Paizo announcing a recurrent series that wouldn't be quite a magazine because they had a non-compete clause so when Wizards slew the Dragon Paizo couldn't do a magazine it its stead. I don't recall though how often it was supposed to come out or what it was supposed to contain, but that was back before 4e and the Pathfinder RPG.
If you don't have training time, why did you mention that your players mostly won't retrain because of the week of game time it takes? :-)
Training time = time required for training when you gain a level - I don't use that in my campaign for many reasons.
Retraining time = time required to spend in training because you have decided that you don't like a feat you already have and want to swap it out for a new one. This is not something I want to encourage, so I enforce this one.
Anyway I allow characters to get new feats and spontaneous spell slots (including spontaneously casting a cure spell out of a new clerical slot) right away. Sometimes if the PCs are getting pounded in a fight and we break for the week, and I award experience for various items from the session, I'll let them level up mid-fight.
*nod*
Same here, though it's not very often that we break in the middle of a fight and people level. But I did have this one fight that lasted for three game sessions. Stubborn buggers, those PCs.
I have the Lords of Madness on my Amazon.com Wish List. What is the CR of the elder eidolon?Elder Eidolon is a template that adds +3 CR.
Oh, so elder eidolon is just a template? Does it have the undead type or what?
Actually, it's a construct - a kind of ancient guardian created by a long-gone race - similar to Azlant stuff in Pathfinder, I suppose.
What's DR/vorpal? I mean, I suppose it's DR that a vorpal sword can overcome, but do they specifically explain it anywhere?
There's no specific definition for it because all DR works the same way:
DR N/[STUFF] means that the Damage Reduction of N applies unless you use stuff. So they don't need to explain DR/vorpal - it means that the DR applies unless you use a vorpal weapon - just like DR/fruit salad would mean that you'd have to attack with fruit salad to overcome the DR :)
Is Pathfinder 36 part of the monthly pathfinder series? Is it monthly? I recall Paizo announcing a recurrent series that wouldn't be quite a magazine because they had a non-compete clause so when Wizards slew the Dragon Paizo couldn't do a magazine it its stead. I don't recall though how often it was supposed to come out or what it was supposed to contain, but that was back before 4e and the Pathfinder RPG.
I don't recall them ever specifically mentioning the no compete clause, but I always assumed there was one. And yes, it's a monthly 'publication' that basically is a kind of mix of Dungeon and the Dragon.
If you don't have training time, why did you mention that your players mostly won't retrain because of the week of game time it takes? :-)Training time = time required for training when you gain a level - I don't use that in my campaign for many reasons.
Retraining time = time required to spend in training because you have decided that you don't like a feat you already have and want to swap it out for a new one. This is not something I want to encourage, so I enforce this one.
Anyway I allow characters to get new feats and spontaneous spell slots (including spontaneously casting a cure spell out of a new clerical slot) right away. Sometimes if the PCs are getting pounded in a fight and we break for the week, and I award experience for various items from the session, I'll let them level up mid-fight.*nod*
Same here, though it's not very often that we break in the middle of a fight and people level. But I did have this one fight that lasted for three game sessions. Stubborn buggers, those PCs.
I have the Lords of Madness on my Amazon.com Wish List. What is the CR of the elder eidolon?Elder Eidolon is a template that adds +3 CR.Oh, so elder eidolon is just a template? Does it have the undead type or what?Actually, it's a construct - a kind of ancient guardian created by a long-gone race - similar to Azlant stuff in Pathfinder, I suppose.
What's DR/vorpal? I mean, I suppose it's DR that a vorpal sword can overcome, but do they specifically explain it anywhere?There's no specific definition for it because all DR works the same way:
DR N/[STUFF] means that the Damage Reduction of N applies unless you use stuff. So they don't need to explain DR/vorpal - it means that the DR applies unless you use a vorpal weapon - just like DR/fruit salad would mean that you'd have to attack with...
The retraining time option is just for DMs who use training time in the first place. Since so much material has come out since we started the campaign 8+ years ago, I let them retrain easily anyway so they can gain the benefits of some of the new material that's come out since they started.
Let's see...what sort of creature would have DR/fruit salad? A cowboy or bodybuilder maybe? :-D
In Greek mythology the eidolon was a spirit-image of a person, so I could see it being either an undead or a construct. I mean undead seems a bit more like the meaning of the word in ancient Greek, but in Euripedes play about Helen of Troy, Hermes fashioned an eidolon of Helen out of clouds, so that's more like a construct. :-)
I thought I'd ready somewhere that Paizo had a non-compete clause in their original contract to publish Dragon that prevented (or perhaps still prevents) Paizo from creating a magazine that competes with Dragon. I think that's why Wolfgang Baur, rather than Paizo, started a magazine to compete with Dragon, Kobold Quarterly. I subscribed for a while until it went the Pathfinder route instead of 3.5.