Sharing scenario prep work

[Aubhel Reghorn]

There have been some questions, with great answers, here about how to print scenario maps. I have another method I use, mostly using photoshop, that has worked well. On one scenario (Jester's Trail) I took several hours (and over $10) to rescale, divide, and print the maps. Drawing them is difficult for me, I didn't have enough battle map space to pre-draw, and the maps in the scenario were too good for the players to miss.

I've heard several reasons not to do it, such as they aren't at the right level of detail (it would cost Paizo more), don't want to pay to print, I like drawing, etc. Regardless, it has worked very well for me at least once, I've read others say the same, and I plan on doing it again.

There are also other things that I have done to aid the flow of a scenario. For example, notes for each scenario, with stat sheets combined into a group, spell or special attack effects and conditions etc. copied. Again, I'm not saying everyone should do this, some of you have all of the rule books in your head from several game systems, and can't wait to buy the next one and memorize it. This thread is not for you.

I would like to share maps, notes, and other digital prep assets with other GMs. I get 3 things from this:

1. Save time on my own prep work. If someone has already done the work, I can ramp up on another scenario quickly and provide a better game for my players.

2. Get new prep ideas. I'm sure other, more experienced GMs have figured out some nice ways of running things. I'd like to learn from them.

3. Incentive to prepare. I might do a better job prepping if I know I someone else might benefit from my work.

To make this sharing work, a few things have to happen:

1. License. Only some of the content to go into prep work would be covered by OGL, the rest must be licensed by Paizo. If we ask real nice and promise to behave I hope they would grant a limited license to modify, distribute, and print scenario content provided that it is only modified by, distributed from and to, and printed by people who have purchased the scenario where it originated, and only for use in running that scenario with the same limitations in the scenario license. Derived works are still copyright Paizo. *whew* We can all live with that right? That just says Paizo does not lose any control or rights to their copyright material, but is allowing us to collaborate online.

2. Space. Someone needs to host the files. This either means more work and resources for Paizo, or they have to worry about what someone else is doing with their stuff. I could provide an FTP server, there are file dump locations, etc., but there is the matter of who can access it. This is a logistics problem that I don't want to get bogged down with immediately.

3. Organization. How do we keep the stuff accessible and prevent it from turning into a dumping ground? Hierarchical filesystems are easy and already in place. A searchable tagging system would be ideal, but harder to implement. At the very least people would need to find materials based on scenario, format (color 11x17, B/W 36w, etc), type (map, stats, notes, etc). No arguments about which is best, just upload or download what works for you.

4. Contributions. For example, I would start with the maps and encounter stats from "Jester's Trail". I did the maps in color, as PDF, cut into 11x17 with some overlap. I then printed them out at Staples for about $1/page. I'd love to see some maps done in large format B/W, they would be cheaper to print, come out in one piece (no taping gluing, etc)

[TwilightKnight]

I think that most of what GM's need as far as support already exists in the form of the spoiler threads. However, the maps are a real challenge for some. I'm not sure how the licensing would work, but if someone wanted to alter a map's layout (without changing the actual image) and save it as a printable pdf on google docs (or some equivalent site) it could work as long as it was free and credited the original artist. I am not up on the licensing/OGL issue so we might need a more official ruling on an idea like this.

[Mark Moreland]

You may not alter our maps save for personal use, nor may you distribute artwork (including maps) from our products. You can, of course, recreate the cartography in another program and distribute that, but if it's just a crop or blowup of our existing art, that's not covered by either the OGL or the Community Use Policy.

[TwilightKnight]

Mark Moreland wrote:

You may not alter our maps save for personal use, nor may you distribute artwork (including maps) from our products. You can, of course, recreate the cartography in another program and distribute that, but if it's just a crop or blowup of our existing art, that's not covered by either the OGL or the Community Use Policy.

DE-NIED!! :-)

[Astralplaydoh]

Basically, fire up Maptools and recreate the maps using Maptools graphics/grid/etc. Then upload those maps somewhere.

I'm definately in favor of having some sort of location to grab all of these things and would be willing to contribute as well.

[TwilightKnight]

Maybe at GenCon, PaizoCon, or some other major cons, experience computer nerds could set up a station (or a seminar) to show the rest of us how to use programs, like PhotoShop, to make the maps/images in the scenarios printable for our tables. That shouldn't violate any licensing.

[Shieldknight]

I use a simple pdf image extractor and then posterazor to print my maps onto 11x17 (since I have that ability, but you could do 8 1/2 x 11). Doesn't always scale nice, sometimes it gets really pixalated. But its a lot easier and faster then drawing the map. If it scales nice, the players really appreciate it. The main downside is the cost. But if you are going to run the scenario more than once, I think its worth it.

Wish I would have done it the first time I ran Mists of Mwangi. I could have used it for more than one scenario.

[Thod]

Aubhel

Thanks for starting this !!!

Good luck to get enough contributors. There should be enough possible that can be done using the OGL - but you need to look out for the no-goes - see Marks comment. It might get me to finally get my act together and post some experience with 3D terrain. If I don't post here but rather in a different thread, then because 3d cant really be shared across the net.
But it might give some ideas for this thread.

TwilightKnight

There are different ways to share maps - see Astralplaydoh.

Astralplaydoh

I hope once it starts and some resources are together it might become easier to get more contributions.

Thod

[Aubhel Reghorn]

TwilightKnight wrote:

Mark Moreland wrote:

You may not alter our maps save for personal use, nor may you distribute artwork (including maps) from our products. You can, of course, recreate the cartography in another program and distribute that, but if it's just a crop or blowup of our existing art, that's not covered by either the OGL or the Community Use Policy.

DE-NIED!! :-)

Do we have an official license to recreate cartography? My understanding was that was still covered under copyright. Technically hand drawn maps even fall under this (but are usually only used for personal use).

What about sharing stats sheets? I can't put the character names in there without Paizo permission, and without that it's kind of problematic.

Can someone (eg. Mark) at Paizo check with legal to see if we actually do have license to recreate (not copy) and share maps and use character names? Any chance that they want to review what I've proposed for permissions? It would be really nice, and help GMs. The end result would be no change for the artwork used, just save GMs a lot of work. (I'm assuming we were always allowed to copy, modify, print maps for running games, as "personal use/fair use" which trumps the copyright notice.) Could Paizo lawyers clarify? I hope I haven't been breaking the law by printing maps, but a strict reading of the copyright notice means we can't hand draw them either, which I think everyone agrees is just silly.

[Astralplaydoh]

Mark is from Paizo.

I believe you are allowed to print out maps for your own use. But there's a difference between printing them out for yourself and sharing them across a website. So any sharing, alterations, etc, of Paizo maps is out of the question.

But you are allowed to recreate the maps. Hence using a program like Maptools and building the maps to share.

[Aubhel Reghorn]

Astralplaydoh wrote:

Mark is from Paizo.

I believe you are allowed to print out maps for your own use. But there's a difference between printing them out for yourself and sharing them across a website. So any sharing, alterations, etc, of Paizo maps is out of the question.

But you are allowed to recreate the maps. Hence using a program like Maptools and building the maps to share.

Your opinion and Mark's opinion are just that, opinions. I, however, am an expert: I have been sued for (accidental, I swear) copyright infringement. :) The verbage on the title page states, quite clearly and prominately:

Quote:

No portion of this work other than the material designated as Open Game Content may be reproduced in any form without written permission.

I don't have (and I assume that none of you have either) written permission to reproduce maps by hand, or print the PDF for that matter. Mark has the opinion that we can do that, you seem to have an opinion also. What neither of you have is written permission from the licensor. Does Mark have the authority to represent Paizo in contractual (eg. copyright license) agreements?

What we need is written permission from someone who _legally_ represents Paizo to do some of the following:
1. Print scenario PDF
2. Hand draw maps for games
3. Recreate maps on the computer
Once they've gone that far then they can think about:
4. Sharing recreated maps
5. Sharing character names in stat/encounter notes
(Bonus)sharing, in the controlled fashion that I asked for, maps modified for printing.

[MisterSlanky]

The struggle with maps has always been a head scratcher for me.

Last time I needed to do maps, about 10 minutes with a free art package to scale the art, and 5 minutes with posterrazor was all it took.

[TwilightKnight]

Aubhel Reghorn wrote:

2. Hand draw maps for games

So are you saying that if I was to hand sketch a Beholder and give it to a friend for free, that I am somehow violating WotC's copyright?

[NeoFax]

For most maps, you can use PyMapper with any tileset and save as a PDF or jpg. It also preformats the PDF to whatever you want the square to equal, 1" or 1/2".

[Thod]

There is also a very simple and nice mapping tool available for DwarvenForge. While the main aim is that it helps you to create a 3D set-up (see my other thread) - you can as well just use it for 2D purpose.
Just look for Tile System in the 'How Do I use the Stuff' section of the boards.

It has the same limitations as DF in regard to layout - and you don't have the advantage of a 3D version - but it should work fine for most scenarios. And it beats DF in regard to transport.

Thod

[Mark Moreland]

Aubhel Reghorn wrote:

Astralplaydoh wrote:

Mark is from Paizo.

I believe you are allowed to print out maps for your own use. But there's a difference between printing them out for yourself and sharing them across a website. So any sharing, alterations, etc, of Paizo maps is out of the question.

But you are allowed to recreate the maps. Hence using a program like Maptools and building the maps to share.

Your opinion and Mark's opinion are just that, opinions. I, however, am an expert: I have been sued for (accidental, I swear) copyright infringement. :) The verbage on the title page states, quite clearly and prominately:

Quote:

No portion of this work other than the material designated as Open Game Content may be reproduced in any form without written permission.

I don't have (and I assume that none of you have either) written permission to reproduce maps by hand, or print the PDF for that matter. Mark has the opinion that we can do that, you seem to have an opinion also. What neither of you have is written permission from the licensor. Does Mark have the authority to represent Paizo in contractual (eg. copyright license) agreements?

If you're really worried about it, I suggest you read our Community Use Policy and direct any legal questions to our Technical Director, Vic Wertz. The topic of map reproduction as it pertains to copyright has been addressed numerous times on these boards and I encourage you to use the search function to find them, as they will likely answer most (if not all) of your questions.

[deinol]

Aubhel Reghorn wrote:

What we need is written permission from someone who _legally_ represents Paizo to do some of the following:
1. Print scenario PDF

Paizo FAQ wrote:

Paizo FAQ: Can I print my PDF, or have it professionally printed?
You may print one copy of any Paizo PDF for personal use. Note that this only applies to products that list Paizo Publishing as the copyright holder—other publishers may have different policies; you'll need to contact them directly.

Should count as legal written permission to print the PDFs for personal use. Other things are under the Community Use license as noted by Mark.

[Aubhel Reghorn]

Mark Moreland wrote:

If you're really worried about it, I suggest you read our Community Use Policy and direct any legal questions to our Technical Director, Vic Wertz. The topic of map reproduction as it pertains to copyright has been addressed numerous times on these boards and I encourage you to use the search function to find them, as they will likely answer most (if not all) of your questions.

Thanks for the pointer to the Community Use Policy, and sorry for posting about something that has been covered before. The problem is that there are a lot of opinions posted in the forums, but not players, GMs, Venture Captains, and even Employees sometimes think they represent Paizo when they often do not. The document you pointed me too does constitute written permission for specific things and is exactly the kind of thing I was asking for, if not the exact permission. It looks like Paizo has already set up what we are asking for: a means to publish shared content that falls under Paizo copyright.

Quote:

You may not use artwork, including maps, that have not been published in the blog, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps, provided that your interpretations don't look substantially similar to our materials.

• You may descriptively reference trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, artifacts, places, etc.), locations and characters from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products, provided it is clear that these are our marks.

Paizo has already added many (All?) scenarios (I'm still unsure about the maps though) into the community use pool.

Anyway, this clears hurdle 1: "License", and part of hurdles 2: "Space" and 3: "Organization" since Paizo has already provided a public registry. Next step if for contributors to find a space to host the actual files, and I can work on that.

My understanding now is that I could set up a web site for people to upload/download content, and organize it, but all of that content must follow the community use rules (eg. Names: OK, Maps: recreate, don't copy)

I'll start with a test map and register it to see if I get shot down.

I'll open a formal request with Vic Wertz on the modding of maps.

[Aubhel Reghorn]

Mark Moreland wrote:

... The topic of map reproduction as it pertains to copyright has been addressed numerous times on these boards and I encourage you to use the search function to find them, as they will likely answer most (if not all) of your questions.

The only thing I turned up is here

Wasn't exactly helpful

[Thea Peters]

I can see this as being a good quick reference for a GM, however, for myself prepping the mod gives me a chance to learn it.. making the maps gives me a chance to learn the areas and where the encounters are going to be. I'm fairly certain that my level of OCD prep would be way more than others would want and my use of note cards isn't going to be useful to anyone else in the way that I use them and won't translate well to being uploaded to a server anywhere.

[Kyle Baird]

Thea Peters wrote:

I'm fairly certain that my level of OCD prep would be way more than others would want

Yeah, way too much prep. ;-)

[Thea Peters]

Kyle Baird wrote:

Thea Peters wrote:

I'm fairly certain that my level of OCD prep would be way more than others would want

Yeah, way too much prep. ;-)

shhhhhhh