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When using Stunnnig fist you can stagger instead of stun starting at 12th level "At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds"
In the undead immunities it does not list staggered as an immunity.
"• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
• Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning."
Though it does have a line about fortitude saves. "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)."
I am leaning toward saying they cannot be staggered, but why did they not list staggered but list poison and stunning. Those are always based on Fort saves, so why list them specificly if there was a line stating they are immune to all fort based save effects.
Cinematically speaking I can see an undead getting staggered though. You rock the lich with a hard shot that rattles his bones causing it to need to spend time adjusting its skull back on straight and getting its bones back into the proper location.
What is your opinion?
I believe staggered is a condition new to pathfinder. They probably forgot to add it to the description.
I would say that the clause about fortitude saves covers it, even if the staggered condition is not specifically mentioned. So, no go.
Zombies start out staggered, so I would assume that they aren't immune.
It should be noted that they really couldn't logically list the staggered condition in a blanket undead immunities section because zombies (except fast zombies) are constantly under its effects, vampires are staggered on exposure to sunlight (for one round then destroyed the next) and a wraith caught in the sunlight can't attack and is staggered.
While not inherently immune to the staggered condition, I believe the fort save proviso will prevent undead from being inflicted with the staggered condition by opponents using Stunning Fist.
You present a good argument; I agree.
While not inherently immune to the staggered condition, I believe the fort save proviso will prevent undead from being inflicted with the staggered condition by opponents using Stunning Fist.
Would you rule likewise for non-fort based staggers (along the lines of dazing spell)?
I don't understand... Dazing Spell (from the APG) causes the dazed condition, not the staggered condition does it not?
Perhaps erik452 refers to a hypothetical stagger spell, which would cause the staggered effect without interacting with the target's fortitude. In which case, such a spell probably would work, since the undead traits only refer to the fortitude save.
Perhaps erik452 refers to a hypothetical stagger spell, which would cause the staggered effect without interacting with the target's fortitude. In which case, such a spell probably would work, since the undead traits only refer to the fortitude save.
ah... then yes such a spell would likely work as long as no fort save was required and the spell was not mind affecting (another thing undead are immune to).
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Perhaps erik452 refers to a hypothetical stagger spell, which would cause the staggered effect without interacting with the target's fortitude. In which case, such a spell probably would work, since the undead traits only refer to the fortitude save.
The slow spell perhaps?
Ding!
When using Stunnnig fist you can stagger instead of stun starting at 12th level "At 12th level, he can make the target staggered for 1d6+1 rounds"
In the undead immunities it does not list staggered as an immunity.
"• Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).• Immunity to bleed, death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning."
Though it does have a line about fortitude saves. "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)."
I am leaning toward saying they cannot be staggered, but why did they not list staggered but list poison and stunning. Those are always based on Fort saves, so why list them specificly if there was a line stating they are immune to all fort based save effects.
Cinematically speaking I can see an undead getting staggered though. You rock the lich with a hard shot that rattles his bones causing it to need to spend time adjusting its skull back on straight and getting its bones back into the proper location.
What is your opinion?
They are immune to any affect requiring a fort save unless it also works on objects so it not so much that they are immune to being staggered, but they are immune to the carrier affect, which is stunning fist.
Now if you had a different way to make them staggered that might work.