I will just roleplay an unpleasant and/or shy person.But if you roleplayed a "clumsy" person, you'd still expect your low DEX to have the usual mechanical consequences, right? Some of just want CHA to have actual mechanical consequence of equal weight with other stats - because it costs equal points in the point-buy system.Leadership. You can spend skill ponts in social skills but you need more to obtain the same other people did. Same for UMD.
And frankly, is the dump stat of classes quite MAD for a reason or another. It's fine this way, if you ask me.
I forgot about UMD to be honest, but generally that's a skill you either go all or nothing on (until a certain point), and whether or not it's a class skill is going to be a bigger factor than most character's CHA. As for Leadership, a lot of GMs disallow it, and you have to take the feat for it to have any impact. I actually find it a bit odd that Leadership doesn't have a CHA requirement.
A lot of DM disallow leadership. I allow it, cum grano salis.
You asked for mechanical reasons, I bringed mechanical reasons.
I could point out that a lot of people don't consider encumberance and build a parallel argument for Wizards dumping strenght. But Encumberance rules do exist.
Finally, again: what stat should fighter dump? I'm very curious about it.
A lot of DM disallow leadership. I allow it, cum grano salis.
You asked for mechanical reasons, I bringed mechanical reasons.
I could point out that a lot of people don't consider encumberance and build a parallel argument for Wizards dumping strenght. But Encumberance rules do exist.
Finally, again: what stat should fighter dump? I'm very curious about it.
I'm not a big believer in stat dumping, at least not to scrounge points to make a better fighter. I can't recall ever taking a sub-10 stat in point buy; I seldom have exceptionally high stats as a result, but no glaring weaknesses either. I find 14 is usually enough for most things except caster stats (and then 16 suffices).
Any mental stat is dump territory for a fighter, I guess; a human fighter will still get 2 skill points a level regardless of INT, and Will saves can be shored up by other means (feats, Cloak of Resistance, etc). Though a fighter can usually skimp on DEX and rely on armor/shield, even at low levels (but not dump).
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I have come to conclude that there are people who believe that if your melee character can't scrape together an 18 and at least two 16s for the physical stats that they just aren't worth playing. I don't agree with this at all. Besides all the ways to boost stats with magic items, there are dozens of ways to buff characters to increase their stats for critical fights. That's always been, to me, one of the key aspects of the game.
Then you abviously havent reached high level yet. Trust me, its a royal pain to rely on magic items to boost items especially as a spellcaster to just have the required stat level equal to spell level to cast- arcane or divine.
Magic items can be taken away. SPells can be debuffed in a heartbeat, especially once over 10th. Stats that are inherent cannot unless drained.
Doesnt mean they need all high level stats. But having inherent stat of 16-18 in your primary class stat is very useful, especially not needing items to boost.
Any mental stat is dump territory for a fighter, I guess; a human fighter will still get 2 skill points a level regardless of INT, and Will saves can be shored up by other means (feats, Cloak of Resistance, etc). Though a fighter can usually skimp on DEX and rely on armor/shield, even at low levels (but not dump).
Sadly (sadly??? not a big fan of big stupid fighters myself) is not that easy.
Wisdon is needed, because of low saves. A lot of my players don't raise it, but never go under 10. I'm sure a lot of people here would disagree and consider Wis 14+ needed, as well as Iron Will. In my experience, it depends from the campaing.
Intelligence 13+ is needed for the combat expertise line. A lot fo cool stuff needs Combat Expertise.
Unless you use APG, fighter with low DEX will waste a whole class features.
No need of explain Str or Con.
You CAN build a fighter which does not need so many stats, but does not cover every character concept one assumes should belong to fighters.
And good luck building a decent Two-Weapon Fighter with Combat Expertise feats without high point buy AND Charisma dumping.
Persecute a player for doing it would be just mean, in my humble opinion.
If you don't want anyone to play a character with a low charisma in exchange for a high something else, make your players use an array of some kind. Maybe a modified elite array of 15 14 13 12 11 10, so that the lowest your characters could have is an 8 in any stat if they have a racial penalty, and the highest is a 17.
Also, you could actually ask for diplomacy checks or bluff checks from every character once in a while, instead of letting the party have a face that does everything while the other players are completely silent.
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That's written into the rules. Did you miss that a character's max load is explicitly dictated by STR, according to a table? Or are you being sarcastic?I think he meant "If you have low STR, you can't carry ANYTHING" - as an arbitrary punishment.
It's interesting that D&D doesn't consider personal mass vs STR rating, though. A colossal creature at 1 STR can still move. I guess that just means STR is 'excess STR above what's required to move your own body' or something.
That is what I meant, thank you.
The key here is, as the original intent of the thread was meant to indicate, there is a problem with wholly arbitrary punishments for a low Charisma. For some GM's the fact that charisma is directly involved with the entire social interaction structure of the rules says a lot (to me at least) to how a lot of players play the game. In our group low charisma players struggle to interact, and often cause more trouble than not due to their social ineptitude. If, on the other hand, we were playing a more "hack 'n slash" game, this would hardly be an issue at all.
Solution such as: moving the will saves to CHA, treating CHA as luck and the like, at least offer an "appropriate" bonus or penalty as the situation might dictate, as opposed to outright punishing players for making characters which might be fun for them to play. YMMV though.
You guys are thinking mechanical penalties to having a low Chr, how about the roleplaying penalties?
The crappy part about having a low charmisma, is the player can't talk without the message "coming out the wrong way". Although the player might be a smooth talker, his character isn't and says things that often offend. That's the reality and it sucks. We play the game to roleplay and if the player is doing it correctly, he's probably a fairly offensive and unlikeable person.
At 7 charisma, most people just naturely dislike you and don't want to be around you, let alone give you information, hire you, or befriend you. At best they might fear or ignore you.
The problem with character stats vs player stats is:
1) Players don't play down to their dump stat.
For example, their fighter has an Int of 7 but the player has an Int of 13, but he plays that fighter as if he has an Int of 13. And devises sophisticated tactics and strategies for said fighter, even though the character wouldn't have the patience or ability to do anything of the sort. The fighter might not even be able to remember that he's carrying item X in his belt half of the time! But of course, the player makes him do the perfect strategies each and every time. I'm pretty sure we've all seen examples of this.
2) Some DMs don't give us more information based on our high character stats.
For example, DMs will often punish us when a low Chr player plays a high Chr character. The DM... has to take the message and basically translate it through the character. The player might be bad at public speaking, but the character might be awesome! Don't punish the player for trying.
And we've all seen cases where the player can't remember something, yet his 18 Int Wizard also can't remember (or figure something out and the DM doesn't even drop hints) because the player can't remember! Ridiculous, but you get the point and I'm sure you've seen it.
My 2 cents on it.
You guys are thinking mechanical penalties to having a low Chr, how about the roleplaying penalties?
Explained that at some length above. The one cannot patch for the other. Innumerable vitriolic threads about paladins' codes result. Or endless arguments about awarding xp for acting at the table.
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As a side note, how do people determine initial reactions to begin with (it's not in the Diplomacy section, AFAIK)? Yes, the GM can just wing it, but you'd think that high CHA people would get better initial reactions.
It is in the Diplomacy section of the skill chapter, found here.
It is in the Diplomacy section of the skill chapter, found here.
As a side note, how do people determine initial reactions to begin with (it's not in the Diplomacy section, AFAIK)? Yes, the GM can just wing it, but you'd think that high CHA people would get better initial reactions.
Those are rules for CHANGING initial reaction, not rules for figuring out what the initial reaction is in the first place. Usually it's going to just be GM fiat (based on numerous factors), but people do take instant liking/disliking to other people they've just met.
You know how people with low dex and no dex skills can't do swashbuckling? Or how people with low str and low BAB can't melee? Or how people with low wis that doesn't have perception rarely spot ambushes?
Well, people with low cha can't shine in social situations. End of story.
Do you go out of your way to make sure the arcane casters get grappled, forced into melee? Do you go out of your way to have social encounters end in fights? Do you go out of your way to make clumsy character have to get through a level of Prince of Persia?
Then don't go out of your way to make the socially inept character "pay" for doing his thing. Throw in the odd encounter where the characters have to impress someone, and let the charisma characters shine while they cover for their less gregarious companions. Show that charisma matters, but don't force people to do something they don't want to. Some players don't WANT to be forced to come up with a speech or a convincing bluff on the fly. Some people find that both amusing and exhilarating.
Want to make Cha matter? Make it determine luck. Any gambling situation, random accident, etc. Assign numbers 1-12 among the players, deduct as many as you have positive charisma (meaning in a party of 4, a cha18 will never suffer bad luck) and distribute them among the ones with penalties, and adjucate remaining positives or negatives as appropriate.
Example: Someone is tossing the contents of their chamber pot out the window. Below walks the party I am currently in: Erzbet the Tiefling (Cha10), Vito the Magus (Cha8), Ewan the Cleric (Cha14) and Toshiro the Paladin (Cha20).
Off the cuff, we look at it like so:
1-3: Erzbet
4-6: Vito
7-9: Ewan
10-12: Toshiro
But since Toshiro has cha20, he subtracts 5 points, meaning nothing is left on him and he leaves spots open for a lucky fluke. Ewan subtracts 2, meaning he is left with 1. Erzbet is neutral, while Vito earns another point. So the new table is:
1-3: Erzbet
4-7: Vito
8: Vito was looking up as it happened
9: Ewan
10-12: It misses the party due to Toshiro and Ewan being lucky enough for the rest.
Now, if you end up with lots of negatives, you might get two people splashed through some miraculous bad luck.
For you cruel people who has this pathological need to harm someone for having the audacity to dump cha, you can just automatically hit the one wiht lowest cha.
Looking at gambling: Adjust the chance of winning by 5% per Charisma modifier. Lets say we are playing Han-Cho. Guessing if you rolled even or odd on two six-sided dice (big in japan), you have roughly a 50/50 chance. Someone with Cha7 would have a 40% chance to win. Someone with Cha20 would have a 75% chance to win.
Obviously, this system becomes somewhat flawed in higher levels, as someone with Cha30 would win every game. But it is an idea.
It is in the Diplomacy section of the skill chapter, found here.
As a side note, how do people determine initial reactions to begin with (it's not in the Diplomacy section, AFAIK)? Yes, the GM can just wing it, but you'd think that high CHA people would get better initial reactions.
Those are rules for CHANGING initial reaction, not rules for figuring out what the initial reaction is in the first place. Usually it's going to just be GM fiat (based on numerous factors), but people do take instant liking/disliking to other people they've just met.
Thusly we should, obviously, use people's Charisma to automatically make people want to beat them up just from looking at them.
Charisma needs to be stricken from the game. Entirely. Why? Because of threads like this. No one knows WHAT the hell Charisma is and it is the stat most related to fluff. And since that fluff is never defined, spiteful DMs are going to make it up themselves to shaft people for dumping a useless stat.
As a simple suggestion to make bad charisma have an effect without inventing complete new rules, let the ch malus of party members effect the social skill checks of the party face.
E.g. face goes in shop to sell loot, the 3 ch 5-7 party members hand around in the street before the shop and leave impressions and behave like ch 5-7 people. The shop owner notices this and not being happy about the bad company the face brought into his street is at a -6 to -9 to haggle with.(= sum of negative ch maluses)
Great. We can just keep the low Charisma Fighter in his room until we are sure we need to fight something.
Congratulations, you have completely taken one or more players COMPLETELY out of the non-combat portions of the game. Are we trying to encourage people to not dump Charisma or quite your games?
My general point buy rule is that you can't have any stat less than 8 after racial modifiers are applied.
Something I agree with most heartily.
Low CHA fighters just end up being seen and treated as goons and flunkies in my campaigns - NPC's react to what they see.
Congratulations, you have completely taken one or more players COMPLETELY out of the non-combat portions of the game. Are we trying to encourage people to not dump Charisma or quite your games?
No, the player did.
The GM wasn't the one in charge of the point buy, the player was.
Any player that wanted to cheezeburger a low rent CHA and then handwave away the side effects is welcome to "quite" as soon as he feels so inclined.
Yep 15 point buy I will roll and if the character sucks charge into every fight hoping to die. 15 point buy is to low, 20pt buy is where it is at (to me and my group).
15 pts is too low only if you're in the rut where you insist that your prime stat is going to be 18-20 at first level. In a 15 pt campaign the heroes are going to be grittier folks, not superheroes. 16 is a good starting prime stat for such a campaign. In that basis your scores can be more rounded.
So you'd start with a base array of 14 14 12 12 11 10 before applying racial modifiers. Which will leave you with one 16 and one 8 (or 9). For a 15 pt campaign that's a decent set of working stats.
I actually am puzzled why people think that that is such a bad stat array. There a few concepts that would be hard to pull off, but with the possible exception of monk and a few specific race/class combos, you should be able to pull off pretty much any race and class combo with it.
Congratulations, you have completely taken one or more players COMPLETELY out of the non-combat portions of the game. Are we trying to encourage people to not dump Charisma or quite your games?No, the player did.
The GM wasn't the one in charge of the point buy, the player was.
And the GM is in charge of arbitrary penalties to the entire party for bs reasons.
I actually am puzzled why people think that that is such a bad stat array. There a few concepts that would be hard to pull off, but with the possible exception of monk and a few specific race/class combos, you should be able to pull off pretty much any race and class combo with it.Yep 15 point buy I will roll and if the character sucks charge into every fight hoping to die. 15 point buy is to low, 20pt buy is where it is at (to me and my group).
15 pts is too low only if you're in the rut where you insist that your prime stat is going to be 18-20 at first level. In a 15 pt campaign the heroes are going to be grittier folks, not superheroes. 16 is a good starting prime stat for such a campaign. In that basis your scores can be more rounded.
So you'd start with a base array of 14 14 12 12 11 10 before applying racial modifiers. Which will leave you with one 16 and one 8 (or 9). For a 15 pt campaign that's a decent set of working stats.
Most of us play games where we aren't regularly protected by RP armor.
Congratulations, you have completely taken one or more players COMPLETELY out of the non-combat portions of the game. Are we trying to encourage people to not dump Charisma or quite your games?No, the player did.
The GM wasn't the one in charge of the point buy, the player was.
And the GM is in charge of arbitrary penalties to the entire party for bs reasons.
Depends on if they were warned in advance or not; if the GM warns them ahead of time that there will be consequences, then the player has no right to complain.
Depends on if they were warned in advance or not; if the GM warns them ahead of time that there will be consequences, then the player has no right to complain.Congratulations, you have completely taken one or more players COMPLETELY out of the non-combat portions of the game. Are we trying to encourage people to not dump Charisma or quite your games?No, the player did.
The GM wasn't the one in charge of the point buy, the player was.
And the GM is in charge of arbitrary penalties to the entire party for bs reasons.
Good point. He can find a game where the DM isn't a dick before the game even starts.
Good point. He can find a game where the DM isn't a dick before the game even starts.Depends on if they were warned in advance or not; if the GM warns them ahead of time that there will be consequences, then the player has no right to complain.Congratulations, you have completely taken one or more players COMPLETELY out of the non-combat portions of the game. Are we trying to encourage people to not dump Charisma or quite your games?No, the player did.
The GM wasn't the one in charge of the point buy, the player was.
And the GM is in charge of arbitrary penalties to the entire party for bs reasons.
Some people like that kind of DM, some don't; having differing play styles does not mean that the DM is being unreasonable, provided he makes it clear what that play style is up front.
And the GM is in charge of arbitrary penalties to the entire party for bs reasons.
Roll up a 'faceless goon flunky', get treated like a 'faceless goon flunky'.
You seem to expect champagne treatment on a beer budget.
And the GM is in charge of arbitrary penalties to the entire party for bs reasons.Roll up a 'faceless goon flunky', get treated like a 'faceless goon flunky'.
You seem to expect champagne treatment on a beer budget.
I expect the GM not to be an arbitrary asshat.
Why would the party get penalized because a single player has low charisma? They wouldn't. Why would the player himself get penalized inherently for it? He wouldn't. It doesn't make any sense. It's already factored into social skills. You are doubling slamming the player and then slamming the party just to be a jerk.
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And the GM is in charge of arbitrary penalties to the entire party for bs reasons.Roll up a 'faceless goon flunky', get treated like a 'faceless goon flunky'.
You seem to expect champagne treatment on a beer budget.
I expect the GM not to be an arbitrary asshat.
Why would the party get penalized because a single player has low charisma? They wouldn't. Why would the player himself get penalized inherently for it? He wouldn't. It doesn't make any sense. It's already factored into social skills. You are doubling slamming the player and then slamming the party just to be a jerk.
Because that player created a character that has a an annoying personality, the opposite of personal magnetism, no ability to lead, and isn't attractive in appearance.
Most of us think that might effect interactions in a role playing game.
I expect the GM not to be an arbitrary asshat.
Why would the party get penalized because a single player has low charisma? They wouldn't. Why would the player himself get penalized inherently for it? He wouldn't. It doesn't make any sense. It's already factored into social skills. You are doubling slamming the player and then slamming the party just to be a jerk.
And similarly I expect the players not to be petulant children.
'The Party' only gets 'penalised' by being one member down in a social setting... or as many members down as chose to forgo that whole 'CHA' concept in favour of 'better' stats - it was the players who made that decision to take that build path, not the GM's. If they were AWARE that 'annoying social stuff' would be part of a well rounded campaign and then chose not build accordingly then they have simply let the team shoulder that burden some other way. It would be like a Fighter rocking up with no sword to the dungeon and then crying poor and that the GM made this happen - the GM must be an asshat :(
At the end of the day they might well have a 'Face' with huge Dip and Cha, thats fine. The Face guy will be treated as the Leader in social dealings, but LOW CHA will likely be treated as 'the help', NPC's might simply assume the player is a henchman or employee of one of the more interesting party members.
The player is not 'being slammed', and neither is 'the party'.
Edit: Actually if the party is stupid enough to let Mr Socially Awkward lead negotiations on their behalf then yeah, they will end up in trouble... a bit like having Steve Erkle leading the charge helping you pick up chicks in a bar - gonna end up penalised hard.
Charisma Notes
Charisma represents a number of things. As described in the books, charisma can represent force of personality, appearance (not even attractiveness), magnetism, and leadership qualities.All social based interaction revolves around the four primary social skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. Three of four are based on Charisma. Items and effects in game that deal with things such as modifying your appearance (noble clothes, parade armor, etc) all provide modifiers to these skills; not the charisma. Ergo, people do not react to people based on their Charisma, but to based on their characters interaction skills. There is no way for anyone to know what a PC's Charisma is without metagaming (GMs like you and I included), so NPCs should not treat a PC differently because we out of game know your base modifier is -2; even though you actually have a +9 when dealing with people.
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'So leprosy is useless because it only does 1d2 points of charisma damage per week.'
Pathfinder Core Rulebook, p556, second column, last line under 'Effect' reads:
Hit point and ability score damage caused by an afflictioncannot be healed naturally while the affliction persists.
So leprosy is pretty serious stuff.
No, the player did.
The GM wasn't the one in charge of the point buy, the player was.
Any player that wanted to cheezeburger a low rent CHA and then handwave away the side effects is welcome to "quite" as soon as he feels so inclined.
The side effects are -1 to -3 to social checks. Which is not very significant in DnD's scheme of things, to say the least. Anything else is arbitrarium-fueled GM fiat.
Low CHA fighters just end up being seen and treated as goons and flunkies in my campaigns - NPC's react to what they see.
Your campaigns apparently are full of NPCs who are disturbingly low on both intelligence and self-preservation instinct.
Depends on if they were warned in advance or not; if the GM warns them ahead of time that there will be consequences, then the player has no right to complain.
Complain? As by such warning the GM admits that he most likely hates the idea of PCs being effective and successful, or, at the very least, is going to be very arbitrary in his judgement the only correct answer is to give him a good warning, and then not play with him if he doesn't listen.
And the GM is in charge of arbitrary penalties to the entire party for bs reasons.Roll up a 'faceless goon flunky', get treated like a 'faceless goon flunky'.
You seem to expect champagne treatment on a beer budget.
I expect the GM not to be an arbitrary asshat.
Why would the party get penalized because a single player has low charisma? They wouldn't. Why would the player himself get penalized inherently for it? He wouldn't. It doesn't make any sense. It's already factored into social skills. You are doubling slamming the player and then slamming the party just to be a jerk.Because that player created a character that has a an annoying personality, the opposite of personal magnetism, no ability to lead, and isn't attractive in appearance.
Most of us think that might effect interactions in a role playing game.
See Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate.
Let's forget for a moment that you are proving my point about making up fluff for Charisma and then punishing the player for it.
The side effects are -1 to -3 to social checks. Which is not very significant in DnD's scheme of things, to say the least. Anything else is arbitrarium-fueled GM fiat.
Because players who start with -1 to -3 in CHA mods, especially Fighters with sod all skill points, are HUGE investors of those precious points into Diplomacy and stuff... yeah, that happens.
What this means in big terms is that they are going to have problems, having social stats starting at up to -3, or worse...
So whats the problem with that ACTUALLY being factored into play?
My Fiat is fuelled by 100% environmentally friendly dumpstats.
The player is not 'being slammed', and neither is 'the party'.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/path finderRPG/general/lowCharismaPlayersHowToGetThem&page=3#115
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/lowCharismaPlayersHowToGetThem&page=2#78
Please keep up.
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Some people like that kind of DM, some don't; having differing play styles does not mean that the DM is being unreasonable, provided he makes it clear what that play style is up front.
When I sit down at a table with a new GM, I expect to be treated fairly, that has nothing to do with "GM style." If I choose to play a low-charisma character, fully knowing that it means I am a social buffoon, and play the character that way, then it is outright unfair for the GM to start punishing me because he, "doesn't appreciate dump stats." I'll bet I wouldn't hear him complaining when I play an 8 dex character.
The biggest problem is that GMs are looking for an artificial way to force the issue of players who are either incapable, or won't divorce their character stats from the player stats. As somebody else mentioned, this is a roleplaying game, and often GMs focus too much on what the player can do, ignoring that often we're trying to play characters we don't represent. I personally can't lift trucks like my 18 STR fighter, or dodge bullets like my 18 DEX rogue, nor am I enfeebled with an 5 STR or tripping over myself with a 5 DEX. All GM's and players (and really I do mean all) recognize that there is a difference between the player and the character in regards to STR, DEX, and CON, yet the same does not ring true for the mental stats. The thing is, rather than figuring out alternatives, perhaps it would be better to point out the inconsistency. If there's a problem with how the character is playing their 7 INT character because they're too damn smart for their own good, or wants to play their 7 CHA like Casanova perhaps the best option is to talk to the player rather than to start throwing out punishments.
I've played the complete jerkwad wizard with a charisma of 7, who was known to outright spoil social interactions with comments about how he was above everybody else. I've played the drinking, belching, womanizing dwarf who hasn't bathed in a week who was just as likely to ruin a delicate interaction as he was to just shut up. In both instances I as a player took responsibility for how I built the character. Maybe that's what drives me to hate these kinds of conversations so much, but I really do feel that it's better to educate, than to punish.
I am.
The players want to be cheesy. The GM is kind of over the exploitation of a point buy system by people who expect a free ride.
Charging them their due is hardly 'slamming'.
Some people like that kind of DM, some don't; having differing play styles does not mean that the DM is being unreasonable, provided he makes it clear what that play style is up front.When I sit down at a table with a new GM, I expect to be treated fairly, that has nothing to do with "GM style." If I choose to play a low-charisma character, fully knowing that it means I am a social buffoon, and play the character that way, then it is outright unfair for the GM to start punishing me because he, "doesn't appreciate dump stats." I'll bet I wouldn't hear him complaining when I play an 8 dex character.
It depends on how far he goes with it; telling people that starting attitudes are going to be based off charisma is perfectly reasonable if stated from the very start. Also, most DMs that don't care for low charisma have a dislike for dump stats in general, not just specifically dumping charisma.
When I sit down at a table with a new GM, I expect to be treated fairly, that has nothing to do with "GM style." If I choose to play a low-charisma character, fully knowing that it means I am a social buffoon, and play the character that way, then it is outright unfair for the GM to start punishing me because he, "doesn't appreciate dump stats."
The problem here appears to be that the players don't then subsequently like being treated like a Buffoon in game - which is all that is being talked about.
Somehow people think this is 'slamming' the player, or indeed, the whole party.
Because players who start with -1 to -3 in CHA mods, especially Fighters with sod all skill points, are HUGE investors of those precious points into Diplomacy and stuff... yeah, that happens.
Even without any investment, -1 to -3 in Cha just isn't particularly significant. -3 means that your rate of success in everyday's social interactions is, like, 15% lower than average. That's all.
What this means in big terms is that they are going to have problems, having social stats starting at up to -3, or worse...
So whats the problem with that ACTUALLY being factored into play?
Because you aren't factoring actual modifiers into play, you're entirely arbitrarily beating up players of inherently gimped classes who had the audacity to try being functional in their supposed role.
I am.
The players want to be cheesy. The GM is kind of over the exploitation of a point buy system by people who expect a free ride.
Charging them their due is hardly 'slamming'.
Their due is already charged in the social skills. Those people proposed posing a penalty to the PARTY just for having a low Charisma character in the AREA - not even interacting - and starting NPCs off at "hates you to death" just for having a low Charisma. Respectively.
That is slamming the player and the party.
Perhaps you would care to actually READ the cited posts?
Even without any investment, -1 to -3 in Cha just isn't particularly significant. -3 means that your rate of success in everyday's social interactions is, like, 15% lower than average. That's all.
Not quite true. Assuming an average roll of 10, you are somewhere between 10-30% worse than an average person with no social skills - on average.
Because you aren't factoring actual modifiers into play, you're arbitrarily beating up on players of inherently gimped classes
WHOA what classes are 'gimped'?
And how is dumpstatting some sort of noble ideal in pursuit of fixing some nameless 'broken class' that is useless unless you do so?
not even interacting - and starting NPCs off at "hates you to death" just for having a low Charisma. Respectively.
Perhaps you would care to actually READ the cited posts?
They dont 'hate you to death', they would (likely) end up statistically treating you one cateory worse than your fellows though (because the DC will be more of a problem for you to achieve), if your fellows were stupid enough to let the monkey talk. If they can keep the oddball quiet he is just as likely to be ignored - just dont allow him to open his mouth.
Frankly I dont need to run around and read your 'evidence', as you started citing me, so this is about what I have said and subsequently what YOU have said in response.
I shall just do what I always do when confronted with the good old
"How dare you dump charisma you have to look like the guy from the goonies!!!" (Yes I can't remember his name and no I don't want to look it up :-p) dilemma. This is Tahlumilali Auvreaanea my elven barbarian with a 7 charisma. He speaks in a round about manner normally not asking direct questions and is covered in tribal tattoos from the neck down.
Though I'm sure there are a number of posters here who think I am playing him horribly and that I am a horrible min/maxer and don't consider me a roleplayer and if you feel that way fine not my problem you can believe that ever you want. I will always know the truth of me and my characters.
They dont 'hate you to death',
Then what is "hostile?"
Frankly I dont need to run around and read your 'evidence', as you started citing me, so this is about what I have said and subsequently what YOU have said in response.
Am I the only person not reading this thread in a vacuum? I am responding to what other people have said and posited. Multiple other people.
Honestly a 7 isn't that bad; with 7's and 8's, I really only start questioning it if a character has four of them or if every fighter and wizard I sit down at a table with at a convention has a 7 charisma. I understand that by itself its not a bad stat, its just when every single fighter and wizard that I come across have it that low that I start getting annoyed. Otherwise, unless you drop it down to a 5, I probably wouldn't do much as a DM other than advise you to keep your trap shut while others talk if you don't want to feel the hurt. At 5, however, the story changes. If it was rolled, I probably wouldn't do too much as long as the character was wise enough to let others talk, but it was bought, its on. You deliberately made yourself a very unpleasant person to be around, though exact details on how this was achieved will vary, and if you think that I am going to just let that slide, you're nuts. It will affect both you and the party, though how badly and if it's all negative is dependent on how you play it. Played well, I may effectively reverse penalties and bonuses for dealing with people in a slum or similar circumstances where being Quasimodo could actually be better than being his master.
OK, just to be clear, only Dwarves aren't allowed to dump Charisma.
As long as we are on the same ridiculous page.
OK, just to be clear, only Dwarves aren't allowed to dump Charisma.
As long as we are on the same ridiculous page.
Race would also factor in what bonuses or penalties I would apply to any given situation. If a dwarf with a 5 charisma wanted to barter with a human, or even better, elven, merchant, he would probably be better off sending another party member in his place. With a fellow dwarf, however, I would probably at least cancel out the penalties, and depending on the specific circumstances, possibly give him some bonuses a non dwarf wouldn't get. In short, the charisma score would be a place to start, with further modifiers, both positive and negative, based on the exact relationship between PC and NPC.
Race would also factor in what bonuses or penalties I would apply to any given situation. If a dwarf with a 5 charisma wanted to barter with a human, or even better, elven, merchant, he would probably be better off sending another party member in his place. With a fellow dwarf, however, I would probably at least cancel out the penalties, and depending on the specific circumstances, possibly give him some bonuses a non dwarf wouldn't get. In short, the charisma score would be a place to start, with further modifiers, both positive and negative, based on the exact relationship between PC and NPC.OK, just to be clear, only Dwarves aren't allowed to dump Charisma.
As long as we are on the same ridiculous page.
That's not relevant. The only way to get a 5 Charisma with point buy is be a Dwarf.
And a Fighter wouldn't be bartering with anyone himself anyway unless he couldn't help it.