Divination questions

[Sloanzilla]

So a L1 rogue jumps out from behind some rocks and throws a dagger at my L1 diviner (with a surprise attack), but I beat him on the initiative roll due to my super duper divination school power.

Would this be how it breaks down?
1. I go first and attack with a standard action. He's flat footed.
2. He goes first and attacks with a standard action. I'm not flat footed.

The suprise round is over, and everyone else rolls and we all go accordingly?

[Tamago]

Sloanzilla wrote:

So a L1 rogue jumps out from behind some rocks and throws a dagger at my L1 diviner (with a surprise attack), but I beat him on the initiative roll due to my super duper divination school power.

Would this be how it breaks down?
1. I go first and attack with a standard action. He's flat footed.
2. He goes first and attacks with a standard action. I'm not flat footed.

The suprise round is over, and everyone else rolls and we all go accordingly?

Since he is the one who initiated the combat, I would rule that he is not flat-footed. Depending on the DM, I could see this playing out as either:

1) You go first, but don't get to attack due to surprise. However, you are no longer flat-footed. Then he attacks with a Standard action on his turn. End of the surprise round.
2) You go first, and can attack with a standard action. He is not flat-footed. Then he goes and also can attack as a standard action. You are also not flat-footed. Then play proceeds normally.

In my game, I would probably play it as 2).

[Father Dale]

I'll assume that the rogue either just threw the dagger or took a 5ft step out from behind cover to throw the dagger. Thus, he only needs a standard action to start.

In any event, you won the initiative and get to act first in the surprise round.

The big question is did you fail your perception check to first notice the rogue?

- If you failed the check, then at the time of your action you can't even see the rogue, or determine what danger there is. You know through your wizardly abilities that something is about to go down, but thats really it. Its not quite as strong as Foresight, which would give you an idea of what danger is about to strike. As DM, I'd give you your standard or move action in the suprise round...you could cast a spell or move or whatever, but if you can't see the danger I wouldn't let you attack it. You wouldn't be flatfooted, but against a hidden attacker you might be denied your dexterity to AC from the attack.

- If you made your perception check you get to go first and can take any action you could in a surprise round. The rogue would be flatfooted until his first action (unless he has some ability that alters this.) In this instance you reacted so fast due to your supernatural responsiveness that you caught the rogue off his guard.

- If the rogues first action was to reveal himself by say stepping out in front of some rocks before initiating an attack, then again you won the initiative and get to go first. In this instance you can see the danger and can respond to it directly by attacking if you so desire. You would not be flatfooted and barring some other circumstance you would not be denied your dex to AC.

[Sloanzilla]

ugh, thanks for both responses. Sounds like this is more complicated than I'd hoped.

If it is a surprise, the only way I could see the rogue being flat-footed is if you argued that the rogue is apparently caught off guard by your uncanny divination abilities and just isn't prepared for you to react as quickly as you did, but I do like the idea of tying that into a final opposed perception check.

My group has also debated in the past that an "ambush" (rogue takes a 5 foot step and throws a dagger) is more of a readied attack (I'm going to jump out and throw a dagger once the wizard gets within 10 feet) than it is a surprise attack (Person A just happens to notice Person B a few seconds earlier than Person B notices Person A).