There is a rules question in here but first:
My players were antsy about leveling up after last session. I joked that all they needed to get from level 9 to level 10 was to defeat one CR16.
One of my players proposed a deal they would fight the CR15 if they beat it they would level and if they didn't we would act as if nothing had happened.
I felt pretty confident that I could TPK. I agreed.
I am sad to say that the won. However they won't have as much luck with the next dragon they meet. I learned my lesson.
The dragon would probably have buffed before combat started
It ignores its own SR
It has 6 attacks(use them)
At one point in the battle the dragon casted displacement. One of my players has the Eleven Accuracy feat from the APG.
If you miss due to concealment when making a ranged attack with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows), you can reroll your miss chance roll one time to see if you actually hit.
I tried to explain that although Displacement provides a miss chance it isn't concealment.
I don't want to NERF her character but that is how the rules read. What do you think?
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It does actual refer to it "as if it had total concealment" in the spell description, so the ability applied. It does note the exception that they can target the creature properly, but still calls in concealment.
Either way, if players offer a challenge like that then it's time to put your power-gamer hat on and pull no punches.
EDIT: Typo.
There is a rules question in here but first:
My players were antsy about leveling up after last session. I joked that all they needed to get from level 9 to level 10 was to defeat one CR16.
One of my players proposed a deal they would fight the CR15 if they beat it they would level and if they didn't we would act as if nothing had happened.I felt pretty confident that I could TPK. I agreed.
I am sad to say that the won. However they won't have as much luck with the next dragon they meet. I learned my lesson.
** spoiler omitted **At one point in the battle the dragon casted displacement. One of my players has the Eleven Accuracy feat from the APG.
If you miss due to concealment when making a ranged attack with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows), you can reroll your miss chance roll one time to see if you actually hit.I tried to explain that although Displacement provides a miss chance it isn't concealment.
I don't want to NERF her character but that is how the rules read. What do you think?
The displacement spell states "The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment." I would say that the nature of elven accuracy is that they have a sharper eye than most and can pinpoint creatures easier, which is represented by the reroll. Personally I would allow the player to reroll (I like to make the players feel good about their abilities!), but I can easily see the argument that says that this is a magical effect and their sharper senses do nothing for them in this situation. As I said, I'd allow it, but if you see it becoming a problem, don't feel bad ruling against the player.
On a side note, if the players offer you a challenge like that again, you should just cheat. Pull out a CR 15 from one of the later AP (like rise of the runelords for example) or something similar. Those tend to be significantly more difficult for their CR than your average mosnter.
I want to agree with you, but it seems the rules are going against it.
The flavor of Elven Accuracy is, to me, that your eyes are so sharp that you can more clearly see your targets, whether they are obscured behind a tapestry or poorly illuminated in shadow. Based on that logic, I wouldn't see it working against Displacement -- because you are clearly visible, but two feet away from your actual (hidden) location. I can't see visual acuity helping there.
Still, the mechanics don't actually allow for that distinction. Elven Accuracy does not stop working if you are firing into complete darkness, for example.
I'm going to tentatively agree. I might feel differently if Elven Accuracy didn't apply in situations such as total darkness where you can't see the target at all, but since it appears that it does, I suppose it would apply here too.
I can see your point, but really I just treat it as concealment, I kinda see displacement as an invisibility spell with the sidenote that you always know what square to shoot at.
I want to agree with you, but it seems the rules are going against it.
The flavor of Elven Accuracy is, to me, that your eyes are so sharp that you can more clearly see your targets, whether they are obscured behind a tapestry or poorly illuminated in shadow. Based on that logic, I wouldn't see it working against Displacement -- because you are clearly visible, but two feet away from your actual (hidden) location. I can't see visual acuity helping there.
Still, the mechanics don't actually allow for that distinction. Elven Accuracy does not stop working if you are firing into complete darkness, for example.
I'm going to tentatively agree. I might feel differently if Elven Accuracy didn't apply in situations such as total darkness where you can't see the target at all, but since it appears that it does, I suppose it would apply here too.
In total darkness she would still need to know what square to shoot, typically by spending a move action to make a good perception check.
Does Elven Accuracy let you reroll against total concealment? Because concealment and total concealment are two different things. (Although usually if it only means the first it'll add "but not total concealment")
The Blind-Fight feat negates the miss chance for Concealment, rather than using the phrase Total Concealment.
If one were to rule that Elven Accuracy doesn't work against Displacement because Displacement works 'like Total Concealment' rather than 'Concealment', it would be a curious thing. After all, consistency would dictate that you would then rule that the Blind-Fight feat doesn't work for total darkness.
[Edited for clarity]
The description of displacement is pretty clear that it isn't total concealment:
The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment.
and
Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally.
"as if" meaning: "as it would be if" like the phrase <it was as if he had lost his last friend>
True Seeing specifically works against displacement but:
It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like.
Elven Accuracy is still a pretty awesome feat but it just does not work against displacement.
I'm now thinking I could be wrong.
If a creature with displacement is also in darkness doesn't the illusion fail to work in darkness?
or because it is glamer does it still work?
There is a rules question in here but first:
My players were antsy about leveling up after last session. I joked that all they needed to get from level 9 to level 10 was to defeat one CR16.
One of my players proposed a deal they would fight the CR15 if they beat it they would level and if they didn't we would act as if nothing had happened.I felt pretty confident that I could TPK. I agreed.
I am sad to say that the won. However they won't have as much luck with the next dragon they meet. I learned my lesson.
** spoiler omitted **At one point in the battle the dragon casted displacement. One of my players has the Eleven Accuracy feat from the APG.
If you miss due to concealment when making a ranged attack with a longbow or shortbow (including composite bows), you can reroll your miss chance roll one time to see if you actually hit.I tried to explain that although Displacement provides a miss chance it isn't concealment.
I don't want to NERF her character but that is how the rules read. What do you think?
Having a miss chance and having concealment are not equal so it should not have applied. Total concealment equals 50% miss chance, but a miss chance does not equal concealment. It is similar to the situation where people assume that losing your dex equals being flat-footed.
Having a miss chance and having concealment are not equal so it should not have applied. Total concealment equals 50% miss chance, but a miss chance does not equal concealment. It is similar to the situation where people assume that losing your dex equals being flat-footed.
What if my player chose to close her eyes as the description under gaze:
Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one's back on the creature or shutting one's eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.
because she is not relying on her eyes she would not get the miss chance do to displacement only the miss chance due to concealment.
Even in the description of the displacer beast(not officially pathfinder but) it says:
Any melee or ranged attack directed at it has a 50% miss chance unless the attacker can locate the beast by some means other than sight.
Having a miss chance and having concealment are not equal so it should not have applied. Total concealment equals 50% miss chance, but a miss chance does not equal concealment. It is similar to the situation where people assume that losing your dex equals being flat-footed.What if my player chose to close her eyes as the description under gaze:
Wearing a Blindfold: The foe cannot see the creature at all (also possible to achieve by turning one's back on the creature or shutting one's eyes). The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment against the opponent.because she is not relying on her eyes she would not get the miss chance do to displacement only the miss chance due to concealment.
Even in the description of the displacer beast(not officially pathfinder but) it says:
Any melee or ranged attack directed at it has a 50% miss chance unless the attacker can locate the beast by some means other than sight.
Then she can use the feat, but remember that even though we take turns in real life the characters are constantly in combat, and I would make the player's eyes stayed closed until his next turn to represent that. A full attack is that entire players round which is 6 seconds. More than enough time for someone to stab him once they realize his eyes are closed.
I've seen posts regarding this type of thing where displacement was clarified as not actual concealment, in fact a rogue can still sneak attack a displaced wizard (as that was what the conversation was about). I do not have link unfortunately.
Then she can use the feat, but remember that even though we take turns in real life the characters are constantly in combat, and I would make the player's eyes stayed closed until his next turn to represent that. A full attack is that entire players round which is 6 seconds. More than enough time for someone to stab him once they realize his eyes are closed.
Okay, its settled then. If she wants make a full attack and gain the benefit from Elven Accuracy(or blind fight)she can close her eyes but she will have her eyes closed until her next turn begins at which point she could choose to open her eyes.
Anything attacking her would get a +2 to attack and would ignore her dex.
Indecently it states under Invisibility:
A particularly large and slow invisible creature might get a smaller miss chance.