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If someone is immune to Ability Damage, are they immune to Ability Drain as well?
If someone is immune to Ability Damage, are they immune to Ability Drain as well?
I would expect so.
Most the time an ability that grants immunity to ability damage states if it grants immunity to ability drain as well.
Under Undead, it states immune to drain AND damage (to physical scores only).
Now, what about the tarrasque? It says it is immune to energy drain, ability damage, but not ability drain. Which means a mid-level Necromancer can Command Undead a couple of Wraiths, have it attack from underneath in the ground against the Tarrasque's touch AC, and drop its Con to 0 in a few rounds, defeating it.
Under Undead, it states immune to drain AND damage (to physical scores only).
Now, what about the tarrasque? It says it is immune to energy drain, ability damage, but not ability drain. Which means a mid-level Necromancer can Command Undead a couple of Wraiths, have it attack from underneath in the ground against the Tarrasque's touch AC, and drop its Con to 0 in a few rounds, defeating it.
How does the necromancer command undead all the wraiths before they can drain his meager constitution away?
He wouldn't even be able to target them if they moved through the ground. He'd have to wait until they attacked, then he has ONE. A handful of wraiths may drop him in one round with a little luck.
Command Undead one wraith, bring it to a tarrasque, it hides underground and attacks the tarrasque from underneath with a 25% miss chance (because it has Blind-Fight feat). It can't be hit back, unless the tarrasque readies an action.
Ignore the low level factor, if it bothers you, and let's say a 10th-level Necromancer has a few wraiths under his command. He kills a tarrasque simply by draining its Con with the wraiths.
Unless immunity to ability damage also applies as immunity to ability drain? Does it?
Unless immunity to ability damage also applies as immunity to ability drain? Does it?
Generally, no, immunity to one doesn't grant immunity to the other.
Looking at the undead type descriptions, undead are no subject to ability drain and are also immune to ability damage to its physical ability scores. This would imply that it is NOT immune to damage to its mental ability scores, although it would not be subject to drain to said scores. Thus, one could damage an undead's Charisma, but could not drain its Charisma.
This was more explicit in 3.5, as there were some spells in the wizard splat books that would protect against ability drain but not damage, and vice versa. There were also spells that specifically damaged undead creatures mental ability scores, particularly charisma, as skeletons and zombies had 1 Cha and damaging that would destroy the creature outright.
Conceptually, drain and damage generally come from different source types. Drain will often be of a negative energy effect, or some other magical source, such as from an undead creature. Damage is often from an extraordinary but not necessarily magical source, such as poison. Granted, this is not always the case, as a Shadow does strength damage, but a wraith does con drain. And I believe there are some poisons that do drain and not damage.
But the point is that they are separate categories and do not function the same, although they are often very similar. You should also distinguish ability penalties as well, as these work different and can affect creatures that are immune to drain and/or damage. For instance, an undead could have its strength subject to a -6 penalty through Bestow Curse, even though its strength is not subject to drain or damage.
Command Undead one wraith, bring it to a tarrasque, it hides underground and attacks the tarrasque from underneath with a 25% miss chance (because it has Blind-Fight feat). It can't be hit back, unless the tarrasque readies an action.
Ignore the low level factor, if it bothers you, and let's say a 10th-level Necromancer has a few wraiths under his command. He kills a tarrasque simply by draining its Con with the wraiths.
I was searching exactly for a thing like this.
Would the Tarrasque stay dead after it's been killed by Constitution drain?"If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains."
But I think that "an effect that would kill it instantly" meant those save or die effects such as Deadly Performance and others (or, with some degree of difference, Finger Of Death, Destruction, and so on), not the failed save that drained its last point of Constitution, because the effect itself wouldn't kill it, it would just drain one of its ability score (which, chance occurs, is the one that will make it dead).
So...?
Maybe this is exactly how they stopped it. Drained it of DEX.
You do realise that with a +38 on his FOR save against the DC17 for CON drain from the wraith you could throw 10,000+ wraith aginst the tarasque with no effect whatsoever ? :D
You do realise that with a +38 on his FOR save against the DC17 for CON drain from the wraith you could throw 10,000+ wraith aginst the tarasque with no effect whatsoever ? :D
Hmm, you auto fail on a rolled 1 don't you. But yes, it would take time.
Riding the average of rolls (a natural 1 in the Fort save every 20 attacks and a result of 3-4 points for each succesful drain), one would only need one Wraith and 20-40 minutes of time to bring it down.
It also doesnt mention ability penalty, I just assume immunity to ability damage givs immunity to ability drain and penalty as well...
Ability damage and ability drain are different things. Immunity to one doesn't imply immunity to the other.
Ability damage and ability drain are different things. Immunity to one doesn't imply immunity to the other.
Maybe, as for the moment I do not really see a distinguishing factor in it, it seems more like ability drain is ability damage but worse. Most of the time it is a moot point, since the creatures in question are immune to it through some other ability. For the Tarasque I would just rule it should be immune to ability drain from a wraith, seems damn close to energy drain or ability damage to me. Ofcourse I would tell players if they make a proper knowledge check ;)
I do not really see a distinguishing factor in it
Father Dale, a handful posts above, explained it quite well.
I do not really see a distinguishing factor in itFather Dale, a handful posts above, explained it quite well.
No, I meant the mechanics as such can be clear, it is just that the abilities themselves are applied willy nilly to creatures.
A wraith might do energy drain, but it might also do constitution damahe or ability drain and it would all be sucking of lifeforce basically.
Poison might deal ability damage or if it is especially bad it might do drain instead.
Mechanically it might be sound but in theme there is just no clear distinguishing factor.