Any feedback is welcome… thanks.
Summon Simple Camp
School conjuration (creation); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 2, ranger 1
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (a chip of stone, a scrap of leather, a scrap of cloth, and a wood splinter)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect assembled campsite (25-ft.-radius), accommodates 1 +1/level medium or small creatures (max 8)
Duration 10 hours (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You conjure a nondescript campsite made of material that is common in the area where the spell is cast. The campsite contains a small circle of stones usably as a fire pit adjacent to one or more unadorned pup-tents, each containing a clean, dry bedroll and blanket. Each tent can accommodate one medium or small creature and the gear they carry. The tent(s) can withstand up to strong winds and protects the creature and objects inside from rain, sleet and snow.
You can summon 1 plus 1 per caster level tents (with bedroll and blanket) up to a maximum of 8. The number of tents must be chosen at the time of casting. If any of the summoned objects becomes damaged, it disappears. Otherwise the summoned objects disappear after 10 hours or when the spell is dismissed by the caster. When the objects disappear they leave no trace of their presence. Other signs of the campsite such as ashes from the fire or depressions and footprints left by the inhabitants remain however.
I think it fits with the new 'campsite' based spells of the APG fairly well.
Worse than rope trick.
I remember seeing something similar back in 2nd Ed. but it was 1st level for Wizards. I'd say drop it to 1st and possibly give it to Druids and Clerics too.
Thanks for the feedback y’all!
I’ll probably knock it down to a 1st level spell for wizards/sorcerers. But now I’ve got to thinking… if I added a ‘can only have one of these spells active at a time’ clause, it could work as a 0 level spell – any thoughts on that?
I see a bit of a problem if your players get too creative. You have basicly a money source : sell the bedrolls. You have a firesource. You have pebbles for a loading a sling.
I wouldn't make it as a lvl 0 spell, with that restriction it also sounds a bit too "unnatural".
It's fine as a lvl 1 spell if you tell your players that there are some restriction like "don't take away anything more than 30 feet or it disappears" or something, so they won't try to outsmart you and pervert the original idea.
Good catch Richard. I’ll be adding, “If the summoned objects are moved outside the spell’s area of effect they disappear.” And yeah I think I agree it works better as a first level spell.
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LazarX, I see your point about not stepping on the Survival skill’s toes, at such a low level at least. It’s a tricky balance, but I feel that the Ranger will still have plenty to contribute. All the spell really does is allow the group to carry less camping gear and spend less time assembling it. You can have a tent at level one (though most spellcasters won’t be carrying one I’ll grant you) and I assume it doesn’t require a survival check to assemble it (I could be wrong).
The only survival check needed, I think, would be to find the stones. But because the ranger is going to be making a survival check or two anyway (to find the best spot, setting up defenses, camouflaging the camp, hunting, cooking, ect.) he/she won’t really be affected at all. Also note, the spell doesn’t give you a fire, fuel or fire making materials – just a ring of stones, but I could make that more clear in the description. Thanks.
Revised version:
Summon Simple Camp
School conjuration (creation); Level bard 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (a chip of stone, a scrap of leather, a scrap of cloth, and a wood splinter)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect assembled campsite (25-ft.-radius), accommodates 1 +1/level medium or small creatures (max 8)
Duration 10 hours (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You conjure a nondescript campsite made of material that is common in the area where the spell is cast. The campsite contains a small circle of stones usable as a fire pit but neither fire starting materials nor fuel is included. Adjacent to the fire pit is one or more unadorned pup-tents, each containing a clean, dry bedroll and blanket. Each tent can accommodate one medium or small creature and the gear it carries. The tents can withstand up to strong winds and protect the creature and objects inside from rain, sleet and snow.
You can summon 1 plus 1 per caster level tents (with bedroll and blanket) up to a maximum of 8. The number of tents must be chosen at the time of casting. If any of the summoned objects becomes damaged or is moved outside the spell’s area of effect, it disappears. Otherwise the summoned objects disappear after 10 hours or when the spell is dismissed by the caster. When the objects disappear they leave no trace of their presence. Other signs of the campsite such as ashes from the fire or depressions and footprints left by the inhabitants remain however.
I remember seeing something similar back in 2nd Ed. but it was 1st level for Wizards. I'd say drop it to 1st and possibly give it to Druids and Clerics too.
From the Tome of Magic, though I'm pretty sure it was a Cleric spell - it fit in the inclusion of the Traveler sphere. It was also less of a conjure equipment and more of a summon unseen servants who set stuff up a camp with what they can find.
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okay let me reiterate the level issue.
Compare this with comparable spells of the same level, say Tenser's Floating Disk and Unseen Servant. This spell is far more powerful than either of those two, so that by itself warrants raising it a level, most likely two.
My suggestions would be Sorcer/Wizard/Magus 3, Bard/Ranger 2,
On the other hand, compare it to Rope Trick. This camping spell has a few advantages over Rope Trick, primarally:
*basic equipment and cover that's not as good as the Endure Elements spell*fixed duration of acceptable length
both of which make it generally superior at level 1-5. But, once Rope Trick lasts a full 8-10 hours, this Campsite spell is completely overshadowed.
Yes, the Campsite spell does a great deal that could only be replicated by casting several 0th and 1st level spells, occasionally several times, but what it does is highly specialized.
You are right to compare the spell to other spells of the target level, but you also have to look at how flexible the spell is. Consider Identify - a spell that gave the caster a +10 bonus to any skill of their choice for 1 minute/level would be overpowered as a first level spell,but giving the exact same bonus to a specific use of a specific skill is fine.
Points to consider:
After level 5-6, Rope Trick is pretty much universally superior to the campsite spell
At level 3-5, Rope Trick is still really ahead of this spell, with duration being the only real drawback
At levels 1-3, an arcane spellcaster giving up one of their two to four spell slots for this is asking a great deal, since that's all the magic they have.
In short, Rope Trick is universally better at level 5+, and having to choose between this and a Color Spray or Sleep is hard at levels 1-4. Sounds very much like a first-level spell to me.
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The fixed duration seems off to me: Secure Shelter and Tiny Hut both have 2 hours/level durations, and this looks to be in the same sort of spell grouping as those two (specifically, it's a 'downgrade' of Secure Shelter by the wording and school used).
This actually looks like two effects to me: a) prepare an area as a camp site (ring of stones, fire pit, clear the area, etc.), and b)summon some magical tents. I'd suggest that a 'downgraded' Secure Shelter would just have the summoning a magical tent part, although the size of the tent could be bigger in this case (i.e. make it a Secure Shelter without the bells and whistles - no arcane locks, unseen servants, alarms, or mystical protection).
I want to express my sincere thanks for everyone’s’ input and any additional comments are welcome. : )
My thinking is more in line with Anauel and Bobchuck’s than LazarX on the level issue, but LazarX’s points are legitimate. There is a lot of work being done and a significant amount of gear being ‘blinked in’ and though the gear is very specific, it is some very useful gear that you’ll potentially be using every day. But for me, the games I’ve been in, all this spell nets you mechanically in 99% of circumstances is less gear to lug around (assuming you don’t want to carry back-up gear – “oops Mr. Bard died/the wand ran out, uhhh” :P) and spend a little less time in-game setting up camp. In other games it may have a stronger impact.
ProfPotts, my reasoning on the duration is that for what the spell gives you anything less than 10hrs makes it completely useless. You make a good point that clearing some terrains for a campsite is quite powerful. I’m considering adding a clause requiring an area of ‘reasonably flat, normal terrain’, but something about that just seems too nitpicky and something that should be under GM discretion – “Hey, why not let the spell work in a redwood forest canopy?”
I think the duration is so the campers can get their 8 hours.
You still need to cast summon wood to get the kindling for the fire.
The whole thing is more or less summoning so I would make it Summoner 1, other mages 2.
Yeah, I definitely need to open it up to some of the APG classes. Summoner is a given, probably the witch too. I’m also considering the druid. Summoner 1, Druid 2, Witch 2 ???
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... my reasoning on the duration is that for what the spell gives you anything less than 10hrs makes it completely useless...
I think the duration is so the campers can get their 8 hours...
Well, yes... I understand why you'd give it that duration, but that doesn't mean it's a balanced way to create such a spell. There's a certain design ethos to the spells in the game, a pattern if you like - just ignoring that isn't a good way to make new, balanced spells.
Fixed duration spells like this are generally a bad idea - they're overpowered compared with their fellows at low level, and underpowered at high level. But underpowered + overpowered doesn't = balanced. Imagine if you allowed, say, a Mage Armour variant spell as a level one spell which replaced the 1 hour/level duration with a fixed duration of 5 hours. Everyone will take that spell, and use it, up to level 5, but after that it'd never be used again. It's not like Wizards can't write as many spells as they want in their books, or Sorcerers can't just swap them out as they level up. That's essentially what you're doing here by ignoring the design ethos of the pre-existing similar spells.
Lots of spells should be of limited use at low level - a level one Wizard isn't meant to be Gandalf! Sticking to the 2 hours/level standard for the spell chain (Secure Shelter, Mage's Magnificent Mansion) would mean you could get your eight hours in your magical camp at level 4 - the fact that it's of mechanically less use before that, due to the way regaining spells and natural healing works in the game is really besides the point: the spell will still do what it does (provide temporary magical shelter), just like a Mount spell still allows you to ride for two hours at level one, even though it doesn't last long enough for you to ride for a full day's travelling.
My suggestion would be, if you're sticking to downgrading the Secure Shelter, to keep the spell chain details (such as duration), but have the effect of creating a large tent instead of a cottage or a mansion. The type of tent could be based on the material components used (choose from hide, canvas, or silk), and would be as secure and weatherproof as a masterwork quality mundane tent which has been expertly erected. Since the higher level spells in the chain include lower level spell effects, you could throw in a couple of cantrip-level effects to make thing thing a bit more interesting than a substitute for an actual tent: e.g. the caster can light the interior as per a Light or maybe a Dancing Lights cantrip, food and drink can't be created, but can be flavoured and chilled or heated as per Prestidigition, a fire built in the grate (included with the tent's creation) can be ignited as per a Spark cantrip... that sort of thing. Leave actual campsite clearance and preparation to your trusty standard-issue Unseen Sevant... moving rocks is what they do well!
Oh, and call it 'Traveller's Tent', to keep the flavour of the 'Secure Shelter', 'Mage's Magnificent Mansion' spell chain. ;)
Good stuff.
You're not wrong in your assessment of how spell building should work, but exceptions have to exist. As it stands, we sit with a single, simple fact: rope trick is the camping spell for adventuring parties. This spell was designed to provide a reasonable alternative at lower levels without invalidating the spell.
If you design a spell for a specific purpose and it cannot fulfill that purpose then you have failed, plain and simple.
In terms of magical "bang," it does a lot. It conjures an entire camp, which is quite magical. In mechanical terms, all it does is provide the party a place to comfortably sleep. In essence it lessens the amount of gear they are required to bring along. That's really it. Most groups could put together a working camp in the time the spell takes to cast.
I'd balance the spell by requiring a single tent & bed roll as a focus, to reduce the magical "bang." I don't see it as hugely useful for anyone who has access to rope trick, but for the other casters it'd be awesome.
Rope trick is one hour per level. It's useless for rest & rememorization till 8th level. A scroll of rope trick would be only 3rd level.
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I guess it's the 'clearly in the Secure Shelter / Mage's Magnificent Mansion' spell chain thing that's the sticking point for me. If it's going to be different from that spell chain, then it should be different - not really related at all.
In that case I'd be tempted to shift the whole thing to Transmutation and say that it clears the area and forms crude but comfortable shelters (lean-to style maybe) out of the materials in the area, instead of a little Transmutation 'cleaning and preparing' and a lot of 'creating from thin air' Conjuration. That'd also make it more of a Druid / Ranger type spell, of course - but then again, they're meant to be the camping experts, right?
I'd also like to see at least something which scaled with level, since no spell is meant to have built-in level-based redundancy any more (whether they do or not is a matter for a different thread... or three...;) ). Going with the 'nature-magic based' concept, how about a small bonus to the group's Survival check, or a small penalty on finding the group whilst camped, which scales as the caster levels? Right now the only things that scale with level on the spell are range - which is pretty much a moot point for this type of utility spell - and the number of people it accommodate... which is a weird one, to be honest, since accommodating only 2 characters with a first level casting makes it close to being as 'useless' as it'd be with a mere two-hour duration, for the average party of 4 to 6 PCs (plus hirelings, guides, prisoners, patrons and assorted NPCs...).
I love the utility spells myself, but I just think this one needs a little more work to hit the balance between what a level 1 spell should be providing a party, and a helpful level of usefulness.
I have to admit that it was a bit lazy and frankly shameless to copy/paste so much from secure shelter. I’ve been exposed :P.
I’m coming around to the view that the ‘clearing and preparing’ aspect could use some attention. What do you think about, “This spell does not alter the natural terrain, clear debris, or otherwise prepare the area for the campsite.”
Points well taken on needing more level scaling built in. I’m stuck in the mud on the duration being a minimum of 10 hrs. The protection the spell offers is irrelevant for all practical purposes, so unless you can use it to rest for a night, you mechanically gain nothing. Everybody else can set up their tents and bed rolls near the fire as normal. There is just a ready-made fire pit, plus a couple of the low strength PCs do not have to carry around the weight.
I am considering changing up the way the number of tents scale, so the max is not restricted to 8. I’ll just need to adjust the area of effect radius to compensate. Maybe, 4 tents+1/2levels (max 12)?
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Making this a Conjuration spell at all is problematic. It's always difficult to assess the 'power level' of non-combat spells, but compare this with Minor Creation - a 4th level spell which can create a cloth or wood object for a mere 1 hour per level, and requires a Crafting roll to do so. Does the limit that this spell 'only makes tents, bedrolls, and related creature comforts' really mitigate the high duration, the lack of Craft roll, the ability to create multiple objects at once, and the 3 spell level difference? No matter how little you value the ability to create a tent from nothing, this spell doesn't really conform with the way Conjuration magic works in the game. Creating stuff from nothing (which lasts more than an instant) takes a lot of magic.
The only standard 1st level spell of large fixed duration is Endure Elements - protecting one creature and its gear from hot and cold for 24 hours - and its an Abjuration. This campsite spell covers similar ground (protection against mundane environmental effects), and is both static, and of less duration, but then hits several of the 'powerful magic' buttons - not only a large fixed duration, but a large area, and it effects lots of people... the base 'mechanical effect' may be 'you have to carry less stuff', but to fit in with the established magic system this spell as written would be higher than level one... possibly lots higher... but then you start hitting other spells which will do the job anyway (Rope Trick, Tiny Hut, Secure Shelter, etc.). The question then becomes: 'Is a 1st level spell to cover the same ground really needed, or practical?'.
As Sean says, it's designed as a spell for a specific purpose, and has to fit that purpose... but every spell also needs to be slotted into the right spell level and school in terms of power if it's to mesh with the pre-existing magic system too. Making it a 2nd level spell solves a lot of problems - it could have the 'industry standard' 2 hours/level 'utility Conjuration' duration and would last 6 hours for a Wizard who's just powerful enough to cast it, or a full 8 hours for a Sorcerer. It's only by trying to make it a spell even a level 1 caster can pull out of the bag that you hit the issues I've mentioned. Why not let the Wizard carry his own tent for his first few levels... then he'd really appreciate this thing when he got it!
Your standard wizard would have to wait 3 levels.
A Summoner would get this spell at first, as would a druid.
A ranger could use this spell as a first level spell, but he can't cast it till 4th level.
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I'd definitely agree on the Ranger getting it as a level 1 spell - it's thematic, and by that point will hardly be overshadowing the full casters. I could probably agree on the Druid getting it (or something like it) early. Not so sure about the Summoner though - sure, it's a Conjuration spell, but Summoners are already powerful enough without needing more help, and it's not really their sort of 'summoning' (it's not a summoning sub-shool spell at all... but that's splitting hairs a bit on my part...).
Revised version:
Summon Simple Camp
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (a chip of stone, a scrap of leather, a scrap of cloth, and a wood splinter)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect summoned assembled camping gear, see text
Duration 10 hours (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You conjure nondescript camping gear, made of material that is common in the area where the spell is cast, set up and ready for use as a campsite. The campsite includes a small circle of stones usable as a fire pit but neither fire starting materials nor fuel is included. Adjacent to the fire pit is one or more assembled, unadorned pup-tents each containing a clean, dry bedroll and blanket.
Each tent can accommodate one medium or small creature and the gear it carries. The tents can withstand up to strong winds and protect the creature and objects inside from rain, sleet and snow. You can summon 1 plus 1 per caster level tents (with bedroll and blanket) up to a maximum of 10. The number of tents must be chosen at the time of casting.
If any of the summoned objects becomes damaged or is moved more than 5ft, it disappears. Otherwise the summoned objects disappear after 10 hours or when the spell is dismissed by the caster. When the objects disappear they leave no trace of their presence. Other signs of the campsite such as ashes from the fire or depressions and footprints left by the inhabitants remain however.
This spell does not alter the natural terrain, clear debris, or otherwise prepare the area for the campsite.
Revised version:
Summon Simple Camp
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, summoner 1
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (a chip of stone, a scrap of leather, a scrap of cloth, and a wood splinter)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect summoned assembled camping gear, see text
Duration 10 hours (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noYou conjure nondescript camping gear, made of material that is common in the area where the spell is cast, set up and ready for use as a campsite. The campsite includes a small circle of stones usable as a fire pit but neither fire starting materials nor fuel is included. Adjacent to the fire pit is one or more assembled, unadorned pup-tents each containing a clean, dry bedroll and blanket.
Each tent can accommodate one medium or small creature and the gear it carries. The tents can withstand up to strong winds and protect the creature and objects inside from rain, sleet and snow. You can summon 1 plus 1 per caster level tents (with bedroll and blanket) up to a maximum of 10. The number of tents must be chosen at the time of casting.
If any of the summoned objects becomes damaged or is moved more than 5ft, it disappears. Otherwise the summoned objects disappear after 10 hours or when the spell is dismissed by the caster. When the objects disappear they leave no trace of their presence. Other signs of the campsite such as ashes from the fire or depressions and footprints left by the inhabitants remain however.
This spell does not alter the natural terrain, clear debris, or otherwise prepare the area for the campsite.
I agree with ProfPotts above on the level (2) and duration (2 hours / level). That aside, there's only one change I'd make. Make the material component miniature camp equipment. It just seems right :) Besides, I can just see the Wizard "making camp" by laying out these "toys" with everybody rolling their eyes until the camp appears. This would allow for a material component that costs something. I wouldn't have it "consumed" though.