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1. Is the border of Nirmathas and Molthrune "hot" at the moment? That is, are skrimishes between forces from both countries still the norm, or are non-hostile(if still tense) interactions taking place between Nirmathi and Molthrunians here and there. As I understood it, Nirmathas and Molthrune aren't in a state of constant war, but rather it's periodic. Am I misunderstanding it?
2. What imported megafauna from Belkzen could be domesticated and actually make it in Nirmathas without wrecking the ecology? Most likely thinking of possibilities that could work in the plains regions, rather than within the forests themselves.
3. Does Kyonin have any interests in Nirmathas as written, that would lead them to meddle in its affairs the moment it became known that a large number of orcs were living there(even if they were getting on relatively well with Lastwall)? Or would it be distant enough to not be a concern of theirs?
4. How fortified/protected is Lastwall along its border with Nirmathas? I know their focus is on the Belkzen/Ustalav borders, but do they simply let Nirmathas serve as their buffer zone to the south?
5. What would you say would be the maximum population number one could fit into Nirmathas, for a race being plugged into the area along with the people already there? I'm just trying to get a handle on how many people I can have there that could sustain their own culture, be populous, but all without crowding out the races that are canonically there already and without overcrowding the land, since Nirmathas is supposed to have a lot of untouched wilderness. The new race is mostly organized into tribes of varying sizes, with many medium-sized villages and some integration into human cities like Tamran.
6. Do the orcs in power at Urgir have the ability to strike at Nirmathas, if there were people there whose existence upset them? For that matter, would the existence of non-crazy-always-evil orcs in Nirmathas actually matter to them at all?
The Orcs probably dont care about non evil Orcs, but you could always tie in plots of them comming over to get them... :) Mind they wouldnt like them if they met them.
Re: #4
There's a Lastwall Paladin character stationed in the town of Kassen in Nirmathas, Sir Dramott. He's there to watch out for incursions from Belkzen (Crypt of the Everflame module, p. 28).
If we take the attitude of the people of Kassen as typical of Nirmathi in general, then the relationship can be tense. The Nirmathi are happy to have the help when trouble starts, but they are not fond of having "foreign agents" around.
Creative Director
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1. Is the border of Nirmathas and Molthrune "hot" at the moment? That is, are skrimishes between forces from both countries still the norm, or are non-hostile(if still tense) interactions taking place between Nirmathi and Molthrunians here and there. As I understood it, Nirmathas and Molthrune aren't in a state of constant war, but rather it's periodic. Am I misunderstanding it?
It's hot. In fact, it was always INTENDED to be a hot war between Nirmathas and Molthune, but for whatever reason, that didn't come out in print. In the new Inner Sea World Guide, we've fixed that. Molthune and Nirmathas are intended to be the place on Golarion where an actual war between two nations, neither one of which is necessarily "right" or the obvious good guys, for folks to set wartime campaigns in.
2. What imported megafauna from Belkzen could be domesticated and actually make it in Nirmathas without wrecking the ecology? Most likely thinking of possibilities that could work in the plains regions, rather than within the forests themselves.
What can be domesticated depends on the animal trainer's time and skill. Anything with the Animal type can, in time, be domesticated. Of course, the orcs don't really domesticate their megafauna as much as they browbeat and abuse them into complacency, perhaps sometimes using magic like charm animal. Favorite targets include wooly mammoths, wooly rhinos, dire wolves, and smilodons. And yes, that does mean that sometimes they cause problems... but Belkzen's ecology is already pretty violent and messed up.
3. Does Kyonin have any interests in Nirmathas as written, that would lead them to meddle in its affairs the moment it became known that a large number of orcs were living there(even if they were getting on relatively well with Lastwall)? Or would it be distant enough to not be a concern of theirs?
Kyonin does not; the lake that separates the two nations works wonders to create a buffer zone. Note also that in Golarion, elves and orcs don't have any real special racial hatred... Elves hate orcs because they're crude and evil, not because they're orcs. The elves of Kyonin are FAR more concerned about the demons in Tanglebriar and the uppity humans in Razmiran and some of the River Kingdoms than they are about some distant land of orcs. On the other hand, there IS an established racial hatred between dwarves and orcs.
4. How fortified/protected is Lastwall along its border with Nirmathas? I know their focus is on the Belkzen/Ustalav borders, but do they simply let Nirmathas serve as their buffer zone to the south?
Not that fortified. Lastwall and Nirmathas are not at war. In a way, all of Lastwall IS the fortified border between Nirmathas and Belkzen.
5. What would you say would be the maximum population number one could fit into Nirmathas, for a race being plugged into the area along with the people already there? I'm just trying to get a handle on how many people I can have there that could sustain their own culture, be populous, but all without crowding out the races that are canonically there already and without overcrowding the land, since Nirmathas is supposed to have a lot of untouched wilderness. The new race is mostly organized into tribes of varying sizes, with many medium-sized villages and some integration into human cities like Tamran.
Population figures are among the most hotly debated and contested numbers in the genre of fantasy gaming. I'm hesitant to nail down a number as a result without already spending a LOT of time thinking and mulling it over. In the end, though, I would total up all the populations for the major settlements in the region and generally assume that 75% or so of the region's total population consists of that number. Now, that said... while folks really seem to get into population numbers... I've yet to see a really compelling game-play reason why saying a country is "heavilly or lightly populated" is less workable than saying a country has "234,502 people living in it."
6. Do the orcs in power at Urgir have the ability to strike at Nirmathas, if there were people there whose existence upset them? For that matter, would the existence of non-crazy-always-evil orcs in Nirmathas actually matter to them at all?
As long as Lastwall is in the way, the orcs of Urgir do not have an easy way to strike at Nirmathas. And as long as Lastwall is in the way, the orcs of Urgir don't really even CARE about Nirmathas. Orcs in Nirmathas probably dont' have much contact with orcs in Belkzen at all.
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Favorite targets include wooly mammoths, wooly rhinos, dire wolves, and smilodons. And yes, that does mean that sometimes they cause problems... but Belkzen's ecology is already pretty violent and messed up.
Where can I get the stats for Smilodons?
Would love to use them tonight instead of Dire Wolfs for Orc mounts.
Favorite targets include wooly mammoths, wooly rhinos, dire wolves, and smilodons. And yes, that does mean that sometimes they cause problems... but Belkzen's ecology is already pretty violent and messed up.
Where can I get the stats for Smilodons?
Would love to use them tonight instead of Dire Wolfs for Orc mounts.
It is otherwise known as the Dire Tiger. They might be too powerful (CR 8) for Orc mounts. I would only use them for leaders.
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Creative Director
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Favorite targets include wooly mammoths, wooly rhinos, dire wolves, and smilodons. And yes, that does mean that sometimes they cause problems... but Belkzen's ecology is already pretty violent and messed up.
Where can I get the stats for Smilodons?
Would love to use them tonight instead of Dire Wolfs for Orc mounts.
Bestiary, page 265.
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The Orcs probably dont care about non evil Orcs, but you could always tie in plots of them comming over to get them... :) Mind they wouldnt like them if they met them.
They'll definitely be clashing in some places, but it sounds like it's going to be just at Belkzen's border with their land for the most part. I know exactly what I'm doing with those Nirmathi mountains up against Belkzen's border now!
Regarding #s 1, 4, 5 & 6, I think those are the kinds of things Paizo is aggressively trying to avoid publishing as "official" -- they want to have a detailed world; of course, but they don't want so much detail like FR where every DM is shackled to the published material.
So, to each his/her own.
I actually do like that approach in general(it's actually what I'm depending on for this thing I'm working on). I was just wondering if there were any definite details that could be used or could solidly contradict what I'm hoping to do with the place. :)
Re: #4
There's a Lastwall Paladin character stationed in the town of Kassen in Nirmathas, Sir Dramott. He's there to watch out for incursions from Belkzen (Crypt of the Everflame module, p. 28).
If we take the attitude of the people of Kassen as typical of Nirmathi in general, then the relationship can be tense. The Nirmathi are happy to have the help when trouble starts, but they are not fond of having "foreign agents" around.
Thanks! I had completely forgotten about that guy. I need to read up on Everflame and its sequel again.
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It's hot. In fact, it was always INTENDED to be a hot war between Nirmathas and Molthune, but for whatever reason, that didn't come out in print. In the new Inner Sea World Guide, we've fixed that. Molthune and Nirmathas are intended to be the place on Golarion where an actual war between two nations, neither one of which is necessarily "right" or the obvious good guys, for folks to set wartime campaigns in.
That really clarifies things. Thanks! And I'm definitely mining some of the "greyness" in that conflict; that element definitely came through in print. :)
What can be domesticated depends on the animal trainer's time and skill. Anything with the Animal type can, in time, be domesticated. Of course, the orcs don't really domesticate their megafauna as much as they browbeat and abuse them into complacency, perhaps sometimes using magic like charm animal. Favorite targets include wooly mammoths, wooly rhinos, dire wolves, and smilodons. And yes, that does mean that sometimes they cause problems... but Belkzen's ecology is already pretty violent and messed up.
Likely going to just stick with the dire wolves then. Belkzen orc domestication approaches wouldn't work for these guys, and the wolves would probably fit in better. Maybe smilodons for the mountainous areas.
Kyonin does not; the lake that separates the two nations works wonders to create a buffer zone. Note also that in Golarion, elves and orcs don't have any real special racial hatred... Elves hate orcs because they're crude and evil, not because they're orcs. The elves of Kyonin are FAR more concerned about the demons in Tanglebriar and the uppity humans in Razmiran and some of the River Kingdoms than they are about some distant land of orcs. On the other hand, there IS an established racial hatred between dwarves and orcs.
That takes some of the heat off then for the native populace. There was still some conflict I wanted to plug in, but it was due to extreme outlying elements in Kyonin anyway. I just wanted to be sure those elements wouldn't actually be close to the norm.
On the dwarf end of things, basically just mining that conflict with the dwarf population in Skelt. I figured that was where the largest number of dwarves could be found in the area. (I had assumed Skelt was a primarily dwarven settlement, but another thread and details quoted in it cast some doubts on that)
Not that fortified. Lastwall and Nirmathas are not at war. In a way, all of Lastwall IS the fortified border between Nirmathas and Belkzen.
Awesome, that works perfectly. :D
Population figures are among the most hotly debated and contested numbers in the genre of fantasy gaming. I'm hesitant to nail down a number as a result without already spending a LOT of time thinking and mulling it over. In the end, though, I would total up all the populations for the major settlements in the region and generally assume that 75% or so of the region's total population consists of that number. Now, that said... while folks really seem to get into population numbers... I've yet to see a really compelling game-play reason why saying a country is "heavilly or lightly populated" is less workable than saying a country has "234,502 people living in it."
Thanks. I was mainly worrying over how best to approach the subject. It was getting frustrating. I'll probably go with numbers only for a few settlements, and stick with "low/medium/heavy" for the larger picture.
As long as Lastwall is in the way, the orcs of Urgir do not have an easy way to strike at Nirmathas. And as long as Lastwall is in the way, the orcs of Urgir don't really even CARE about Nirmathas. Orcs in Nirmathas probably dont' have much contact with orcs in Belkzen at all.
Cool, I was mainly wondering if the powers at Urgir would have had some trick up their sleeves that could come into play if they really wanted to strike at Nirmathas. The rare brighter minds in Urgir, that is.
Thanks for the answers, big time! I think I'm finally close to be tapped out on questions on this subject. ;)
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One other bit of Golarion lore on Nirmathas, which you may or may not have overlooked: Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale, which...
Anyways, what impact this may have in the relations between Nirmathas and Varisia, or Varisia and Molthune, remains to be seen, according to the Campaign Setting. I haven't had the chance to peruse Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale yet, so I can't comment further, but I do find the idea interesting.
That brings up some interesting Ideas :)
One other bit of Golarion lore on Nirmathas, which you may or may not have overlooked: Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale, which...
** spoiler omitted **
Anyways, what impact this may have in the relations between Nirmathas and Varisia, or Varisia and Molthune, remains to be seen, according to the Campaign Setting. I haven't had the chance to peruse Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale yet, so I can't comment further, but I do find the idea interesting.
Actually, the background material in the Crypt of the Everflame mentions that, as well. It is described as giving Skelt a new option for trade, where before they were limited to trading with the Dwarves in Kraggodan.
I could see the Bloodsworn Vale becoming the site of some clandestine activities by the forces of Molthune and Nirmathas. It could not be open warfare, as the Vale is claimed by Korvosa. If Molthune acted there openly, that would invite a second war, and encourage alliance between Nirmathas and Korvosa.
Of course, if that alliance was what someone actually wanted to happen.. well.. that's a different campaign arc altogether.
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Actually, the background material in the Crypt of the Everflame mentions that, as well. It is described as giving Skelt a new option for trade, where before they were limited to trading with the Dwarves in Kraggodan.
Huh. Good point. The entire trilogy of modules (Crypt of the Everflame, Masks of the Living God, and City of the Golden Death) are set in Nirmathas, so I imagine there's plenty of additional information on the country there.
I could see the Bloodsworn Vale becoming the site of some clandestine activities by the forces of Molthune and Nirmathas. It could not be open warfare, as the Vale is claimed by Korvosa. If Molthune acted there openly, that would invite a second war, and encourage alliance between Nirmathas and Korvosa.Of course, if that alliance was what someone actually wanted to happen.. well.. that's a different campaign arc altogether.
For me, the question hinges around, "Which is a better ally for Korvosa, Nirmathas or Molthune?"
Nirmathas is certainly closer, but the instability of the country due to constant warfare and the anarchic conditions there must be fairly unappealing. Moreover, Korvosa already has access to plenty of forested lands, so I'm not sure what Nirmathas could offer them as a trading partner.
If Korvosa were to help Molthune conquer Nirmathas, they could potentially set up a trade route through Nirmathas, which could provide an inland route South of Lake Encarthan. However, Molthune clearly has imperial ambitions, and a pacified Nirmathas could lead Molthune's armies directly to Korvosa's doorstep, given time.
Further, the anarchic conditions could (if Korvosa was savy enough) prove to make the country ripe for economic exploitation. Without a strong government to protect the interests of the people of Nirmathas, multinational trading companies from Korvosa could establish whatever conditions they like, much like the Aspis Consortium did in the Mwangi Expanse.
Actually, the background material in the Crypt of the Everflame mentions that, as well. It is described as giving Skelt a new option for trade, where before they were limited to trading with the Dwarves in Kraggodan.
Huh. Good point. The entire trilogy of modules (Crypt of the Everflame, Masks of the Living God, and City of the Golden Death) are set in Nirmathas, so I imagine there's plenty of additional information on the country there.
Actually, the third module has little to do with Nirmathas and provides almost no background. However, Masks of the Living God has a good deal of information on the leadership of Nirmathas.
In a campaign, the after-effects of the Masks of the Living God could lead to more solidarity in Nirmathas, and certainly to more resentment of foreign influences.
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That's a lot of great stuff to consider about Korvosa and trade, though doing anything with Korvosa having any definite leanings in alliances and trade seems like it could be a real headache considering Curse of the Crimson Throne, and where the city may or may not end up politically by the end of that AP for different groups. Probably going to have to paint that with very broad strokes.
Still, something to think about...
I've been mining the Everflame trilogy lately, but Bloodsworn Vale snuck right by me. Thanks for calling it out guys, I'm certainly keeping that and Korvosa in mind.
On the topic of "Nirmathas or Molthrune" for Korvosa, Molthrune would certainly be like riding a tiger, but some folks in Korvosa might very well welcome assimilation and stability, provided the city got the same status as the "citizen" cities in Molthrune itself. As for the chances of that happening...
Nirmathas seems like the safer long-term proposition to me right now, with Korvosa operating from a seeming advantage structurally and economically.
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That's a lot of great stuff to consider about Korvosa and trade, though doing anything with Korvosa having any definite leanings in alliances and trade seems like it could be a real headache considering Curse of the Crimson Throne, and where the city may or may not end up politically by the end of that AP for different groups. Probably going to have to paint that with very broad strokes.
My understand is that, in most circumstances, Adventure Path products are considered to be "in the future" when writing Campaign Setting books. Since I have a sneaking suspicion this is all research for the fan project you've mentioned, I think your best bet is to use this format, with a sidebar discussing possibilities for how this could change with the conclusion of that AP.
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My understand is that, in most circumstances, Adventure Path products are considered to be "in the future" when writing Campaign Setting books. Since I have a sneaking suspicion this is all research for the fan project you've mentioned, I think your best bet is to use this format, with a sidebar discussing possibilities for how this could change with the conclusion of that AP.
Ha! I've actually been setting stuff aside for sidebar discussion, and it never occured to me to deal with the Korvosa situation that way. Thanks!
And the sneaking suspicion is right on the mark. ;)
My understand is that, in most circumstances, Adventure Path products are considered to be "in the future" when writing Campaign Setting books.
That's not correct. Lost Cities of Golarion specifically paints one city's present as being after the events of an AP.
Xin-Shalast from Rise of the Runelords is presented with a sidebar pointing out that the current state has spoilers for the AP. The presentation of the Xin-Shalast presumes the heroes successfully completed Rise of the Runelords, and defeated Karzoug.
Also, the political turmoil in Korvosa is referenced.
My understanding is that, for canonical "core" continuity, Paizo products take place in the year 47xx corresponding to the year of publication from 2000 onward. Products published in 2007 take place in 4707 A.R., products published in 2008 take place in 4708 A.R., and so on.
I think, for APs, it is safer to assume they *began* in the year of the publicaion of the first volume, but *concluded* as much later as needed (especially long-term ones like Kingmaker, which could be assumed to be ongoing from 4710 through 4720 or later).
Individual GMs are free to alter their own games as they need to, of course. For example, I am running the Price of Immortality trilogy in a PBeM currently. I plan to use Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale as a follow-up, even though canonically it has already happened (and is referenced as such in the Crypt of the Everflame).
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Creative Director
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My understand is that, in most circumstances, Adventure Path products are considered to be "in the future" when writing Campaign Setting books.That's not correct. Lost Cities of Golarion specifically paints one city's present as being after the events of an AP.
** spoiler omitted **
My understanding is that, for canonical "core" continuity, Paizo products take place in the year 47xx corresponding to the year of publication from 2000 onward. Products published in 2007 take place in 4707 A.R., products published in 2008 take place in 4708 A.R., and so on.
I think, for APs, it is safer to assume they *began* in the year of the publicaion of the first volume, but *concluded* as much later as needed (especially long-term ones like Kingmaker, which could be assumed to be ongoing from 4710 through 4720 or later).
Individual GMs are free to alter their own games as they need to, of course. For example, I am running the Price of Immortality trilogy in a PBeM currently. I plan to use Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale as a follow-up, even though canonically it has already happened (and is referenced as such in the Crypt of the Everflame).
Actually... Lost Cities is an unusual exception to the rule. For pretty much EVERY other product we've done or will do... the APs and modules are assumed to be taking place in the near future. When we DO do some sort of product that takes place after an established AP or adventure, we'll include some sort of information like we did for that part of Lost Cities.
We don't want to self-obsolete our adventures, basically. The more we do things set AFTER adventures, the less those adventures are relevant. Furthermore, by assuming that the adventures HAVEN'T started yet, gamers can play them in any order they want, and until those adventures happen in their own home game... they aren't yet canon for that game. Which means, for example, that until you run "Curse of the Crimson Throne,"
The Lost Cities bit is sort of an experiment to see how folks react, to be honest.
With the new "Inner Sea World Guide," we've adjusted the world calender up to 4711. But none of the adventure paths or adventures we've published over the past several years are assumed to have started yet; they're still in the same state of waiting as they were the day they were published.
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That's a lot of great stuff to consider about Korvosa and trade, though doing anything with Korvosa having any definite leanings in alliances and trade seems like it could be a real headache considering Curse of the Crimson Throne, and where the city may or may not end up politically by the end of that AP for different groups. Probably going to have to paint that with very broad strokes.
Still, something to think about...
I've been mining the Everflame trilogy lately, but Bloodsworn Vale snuck right by me. Thanks for calling it out guys, I'm certainly keeping that and Korvosa in mind.
On the topic of "Nirmathas or Molthrune" for Korvosa, Molthrune would certainly be like riding a tiger, but some folks in Korvosa might very well welcome assimilation and stability, provided the city got the same status as the "citizen" cities in Molthrune itself. As for the chances of that happening...
Nirmathas seems like the safer long-term proposition to me right now, with Korvosa operating from a seeming advantage structurally and economically.
I don't think Korvosa would really like Molthune all that much. As a loyal vassal-state of Cheliax I think they would perceive Molthune as traitors to the crown.
--I wanna vrock, VROCK!
