Ok guys, I am a new DM (DMing for 5 months now) and last night I ran my game. I was SOOO EXCITED for the last encounter of the night. I had a 9th lvl cleric and some undead minions (just to protect the boss of course). And needless to say, it did not turn out the way I had hoped, I am want your guys opinion on a matter.
First round: Everyone is fighting and The good cleric (lvl 6) casts Summons Ancestral Guardian.
Fighting goes on; everything is going well as I had hoped...
Second round: The good cleric casts Silence on the Ancestral Guardians weapon (supposedly it is an actual tangible item, not spirit like the guardian) and sends the Ancestral Guardians to my bad guy!
Fighting goes on; and now im screwed...
Since the bad guy had P from E, the Ancestral Guardians couldnt attack, but all they had to do was stay around my cleric and I couldnt cast ANYTHING! Because of the silence on the weapon. I try to move away and the cleric tells me, "if you move they follow you, even on your turn because it acts like a spiritual weapon…” Though I didn’t know spiritual weapon stayed with the character, I thought the caster had to direct it on his turn???
So here I am with this bad @$$ 9th lvl cleric and I cant do ANYTHING! I cant cast any Verbal component spells (which is like all of them), I am told if I grab the weapon from the spirit and throw it away, the weapon will just come right back to the spirit next round and continune with the silence. If I sunder the weapons it will just re appear. I cant run away because the weapons/guardians will just follow!!! What the hell!
What should I have done??? What would you guys have done??? I KNOW this would not have happend to a more experience and well rounded DM.
As a new DM, I am not as schooled on the rules and I sometime rely on my players to help me out, though I cant help but feel slighted in this situation and I just dont know better.
All in all, my cleric just sat there and channeled negative energy until he died... REALLY SUCKS!!!
Here are the two spells used:
Summon Ancestral Guardian
School conjuration (summoning); Level bard 3, cleric 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F/DF (stone metal image of your ancestor)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect two summoned ancestor spirits
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
You call the spirits of two ancestors to manifest in the mortal world and attack your enemies. Each appears as a transparent image of a powerful, wise dwarf armed with a traditional dwarven weapon of your choice. These spirits move and attack at your direction, each having the abilities of a spiritual weapon, except they can attack different targets and deal physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing, according to the weapon the spirit wields) instead of force damage. Like creatures conjured with a summon monster spell, your ancestors are not harmed if these manifestations are destroyed.
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Silence
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object); Spell Resistance: yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature's possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. Creatures in an area of a silence spell are immune to sonic or language-based attacks, spells, and effects.
I would have ruled that the weapon in question wasn't tangible, since it's treated the same as a spiritual weapon, and that stops the silence from being able to target it since it's not really... real.
Alternatively, take your move action to move backwards four squares (assuming 20 ft move). Since it's only a 20 foot radius, it extends four squares from him. Four squares directly away from him would put you one square out of the range, meaning 'I cast a spell.'
Otherwise, consider a Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell, for casting in just such an occasion.
Yes, but the cleric was telling me, "If you move back, they follow" On my turn, not his. I move, they are attached to my hip??? Does that sound right??? Or I move and they move on his turn???
I would have ruled that the weapon in question wasn't tangible, since it's treated the same as a spiritual weapon, and that stops the silence from being able to target it since it's not really... real.
Alternatively, take your move action to move backwards four squares (assuming 20 ft move). Since it's only a 20 foot radius, it extends four squares from him. Four squares directly away from him would put you one square out of the range, meaning 'I cast a spell.'
Otherwise, consider a Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell, for casting in just such an occasion.
Summoned creatures and the like have a specific spot in initiative, which defaults to the same time as the caster of the spell (When the creature was making its attack rolls, I'm guessing). The only way he could have moved during your cleric's turn would be if you triggered an ability like Step Up or No Escape. Seeing as how this isn't a barbarian and has no feats... I'd say your players pulled one over on you.
EDIT: Unless they had the summoned creature ready an action to follow you if you moved. Then it's legit... but if they were attacking they couldn't have done that.
Yar.
This duplicate thread linked here has more clarifications for you, and is also in the appropriate forum (rules). I recommend you make any further posts on this topic there.
~P
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I would not allow ancestral guardian to be targeted with a Silence spell. I do not think a non-creature should be a valid target; it can target a point, a creature, or an object. Ancestral guardian isn't any of those. If the player insists that they are creatures, ask for a stat block. Once they have a stat block, you can kill them, destroy their weapons, etc. If they were creatures, your negative energy would have done them in pretty quickly.
That said, a 9th-level cleric can definitely cast Silent Dispel Magic. Which is an awesome trick.
Even if they had gotten sundered weapons back, or new weapons when the others were thrown away, that doesn't mean Silence is re-cast on them automatically.
Such a high-level cleric could probably also just wade into melee along with the mooks. The PC's can no longer cast spells, either, because they're in the radius of the same spell!
Sometimes, even an experienced DM gets caught off-guard. And sometimes, you can't think of anything to come back with. That's okay, the PC's need their victories. Just make sure the same trick doesn't work twice, and that the next fight is a little harder.
EDIT: D'oh! A pirate has informed me of proper protocol.
Not sure why the other thread was locked instead of this, since that had more discussion...
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What should I have done??? What would you guys have done??? I KNOW this would not have happend to a more experience and well rounded DM.
As a new DM, I am not as schooled on the rules and I sometime rely on my players to help me out, though I cant help but feel slighted in this situation and I just dont know better.
Trust me - I've been running games almost continuously for 5 years now, and my players still manage to find ways to negate my boss' tricks. There's just no way one person can be as creative as 3-6 other people all working together. It's why a "second pair of eyes" is so helpful in anything (not just gaming). I was just building a high-level character for something I wasn't running, and I thought I had all my bases covered, and someone said "what if he walks into an anti-magic field?"...
That being said, you can learn from the experience, in terms of preparation ("Here's how I'll counter that trick next time"), rules ("Here's what you did wrong when you cast that spell, do it right next time"), and in terms of confidence ("That doesn't seem right - I'm going to disallow it for now, and we can discuss it after the game.")
To address the specific rules issues here, lets look at the spells in question. Summon Ancestral Guardian refers to both spiritual weapon and summon monster in it's description. However, it's a conjuration (summoning) spell instead of spiritual weapon's evocation (force). I'd probably rule that they act as summoned creatures rather than spiritual weapons, they just use the same attack rules as spiritual weapon does (based on your BAB and Wis). This does make them (or at least their weapons) physical, and so valid targets for silence, and for sundering. I can see the other side, though, so it's really a judgement call.
Spiritual Weapon, as a spell effect, moves with the target unless you direct it otherwise (which is why it gets a full attack even if the target moves, but not if redirected). If Ancestral Guardians are a spell effect too, then they'd move with the target, but then they wouldn't be valid targets for silence. Since my interpretation classes them in with summoned monsters, they instead move on their own initiative (which defaults to the same as the summoning cleric), and move as a dwarf (including the ability to make double moves). A cleric with 30' movement speed can out-range a dwarf without too much trouble by double-moving away. If he's slowed by his armor, that's another problem.
Silence can be cast at range on an unwilling target, so it's entirely possible that the evil cleric could have been targeted directly, rather than indirectly via the weapons. If he was, he'd receive a will save, but if he failed it, he'd be silenced and unable to move out of it (since it moves with him), so casting it on something that follows him removes the will save, but gives him more options for avoiding the spell. I'd allow that tradeoff.
As others have pointed out, silence takes a whole round (which is different from a full round) to cast, so the cleric could have tried to disrupt the spell. Assuming he didn't, couldn't, or failed to, on round three we have the cleric menaced by two physical weapons, one of which is silenced, apparently being held by dwarven ghosts. (Side note: Why dwarves? If the caster is a human, they're not going to have dwarven ancestors...) Round 3, he moves 30' away (out of the silence area), and casts a spell. The ancestors double-move to catch up, and couldn't attack him even without his protection spell. Round 4 repeats. Say in round 5 he runs out of room to move directly away. Instead, he double moves to the side, and the ancestors follow - depending on geometry, he might still be in the silence effect after that, but he'll probably just be on the edge and might even be able to 5' step out.
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TL;DR:
Either the ancestors are physical, move at dwarven speeds, can have silence cast on them, and can be out-run, or they're spell effects, move when the cleric moves, and can't have silence cast on them. I prefer the first, because it's a conjuration spell.
Thanks guys, ALL of this Really helps!
One thing I would like to point out is I DO NOT BELIEVE MY PLAYERS WHERE PULLING ONE OVER ON ME. The cleric who cast this spent time trying to help me think of ways to get past this. I trully believe he acted to the best of HIS knowledge and was not trying to cheat.
Thanks!
Not sure why the other thread was locked instead of this, since that had more discussion...
----------------------
What should I have done??? What would you guys have done??? I KNOW this would not have happend to a more experience and well rounded DM.
As a new DM, I am not as schooled on the rules and I sometime rely on my players to help me out, though I cant help but feel slighted in this situation and I just dont know better.Trust me - I've been running games almost continuously for 5 years now, and my players still manage to find ways to negate my boss' tricks. There's just no way one person can be as creative as 3-6 other people all working together. It's why a "second pair of eyes" is so helpful in anything (not just gaming). I was just building a high-level character for something I wasn't running, and I thought I had all my bases covered, and someone said "what if he walks into an anti-magic field?"...
That being said, you can learn from the experience, in terms of preparation ("Here's how I'll counter that trick next time"), rules ("Here's what you did wrong when you cast that spell, do it right next time"), and in terms of confidence ("That doesn't seem right - I'm going to disallow it for now, and we can discuss it after the game.")
To address the specific rules issues here, lets look at the spells in question. Summon Ancestral Guardian refers to both spiritual weapon and summon monster in it's description. However, it's a conjuration (summoning) spell instead of spiritual weapon's evocation (force). I'd probably rule that they act as summoned creatures rather than spiritual weapons, they just use the same attack rules as spiritual weapon does (based on your BAB and Wis). This does make them (or at least their weapons) physical, and so valid targets for silence, and for sundering. I can see the other side, though, so it's really a judgement call.
Spiritual Weapon, as a spell effect, moves with the...
Yar.
No problem. :D
Also, just making sure that you read all the posts in the duplicate thread as well -> Linked here.
There is a lot of good info there as well (before it got locked). I'm only linking this time instead of reposting everything as there's too much to copy-paste now, and I'm kinda lazy.
^_^;;
~P
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For the future, and I wish someone had given me this advice when I started GMing:
Your major NPCs (i.e. the ones you care about/have true plot importance) should have escape plans--especially the spellcasters. Spells like silent teleport/dimension door are your friend. Remember that you can have magical items to do similar things, and that spell-like abilities are ALWAYS cast silently and without somatic components.
If you're playing an evil cleric, for example, you can check the Book of Vile Darkness (3.5 material) and get him a violated horn--or some less-gross version thereof. All he has to do is break the horn, and he's transported to his headquarters.
Remember, if your villains are smart, they realize they might be overpowered, so they come with escape routes planned. Of course, if the PCs manage to circumvent these, then they should be congratulated.