Actually, there was a pretty large swath in history where the most serious and optimal fighting was done in shield walls, with shield and either axe or sword. And truly, that remained the case even after plate for some time because only the richest even had access to it.
I actually kinda like that. I dislike that THF is so superior to many other types, to the point that pretty much all 3.5 fighters I saw used it, but it makes sense historically. The only "sword and board" combo I can think of with historical staying power is sword and buckler. Mostly, when plate came along, two handed weapons took over, so I guess that makes sense for D&D/Pathfinder too.
Yeah, that swath in history would be... pretty much all of it. (if you include the use of spears, that is) :)
But actually, shields larger than the buckler were already starting to go out of style at the height of full-body chain armor. The large 2-handed(or 1 1/2-handed) 'grete swerds' were becoming popular by 1250 A.D. About that time, or shortly thereafter, plate reinforcements were starting to be added to maille in order to combat the bigger, more powerful weapons. So yeah, shields were old-fashioned by the time full-plate as we usually think of it was popular. (Also, full-plate was often cheaper than a full suit of maille, thus more accessible.)
+1
The last "great" Shieldwall battle was at Hastings in 1066. It is universely believed that William won this battle against Harolds shieldwall because of his armored riders.
After that the invention of the armored rider and massed missile troops made shield walls obsolete (though shields were still in use).
All of the characters I make in my free time follow the same standards:ABILITY SCORES - 25 pt. buy
STARTING FUNDS - Standard for their level, though those with crafting feats can craft magic items at crafting costs
CORE/APG FEATS - All feats from any Pathfinder hardback published by Paizo are allowed by default, provided prequisites are met. Sometimes, other Paizo publication suplamental rules are introduced, though this is not commonly done.
PC COMPARISONS - We are talking about APG fighters as they compare to Core fighters attempting to do the same things (such as TWF fighting, THW fighting, mobile fighting, archery, etc.).
Also, all of my PCs have 3/4 the variable amount of HP (rounded up). Therefore, a 10th-level fighter with 20 Constitution who put all his favored class bonuses into HP would end up with 138 (10 first level + 68 variable + 50 Con + 10 favored class = 138, rounded up).
My groups tend to play high powered games in which surviving is often hit or miss.
Gonna go with similarity as much as possible, to keep things simple. Made my own builds, seem to have come out with a bit more than yours, a little less well-rounded. Can easily drop wis by a point to make cha a 10 if you don't like negatives in a character. Also kept the build the same between the two, to more closely compare the benefits/negatives of the APG varient. Damage numbers I based off fighting a Marilith Demon, seemed fitting.
Here is the link to my gdoc spreadsheet for my damage numbers. If you want to review, feel free.Few things to note: I didn't factor in any of the critical abilities (stunning) which would surely go off and help out considerably. (Considering even a failed save is staggered, preventing a full attack back.) I did factor critical mastery into the chance to crit however.
I also didn't factor in two weapon rend, it should favor the APG fighter, as he has a better chance to hit with both at any given time. (And he can set it off on a standard attack action or AoO as well). All in all, while the core fighter has more better skill sets (due to less armor check penalty) as well as faster movement (can also be offset by boots of springing and striding if you have a haster in the party, or add speed to your weapons) its hard to call it between these two.
APG guy has less AC unless he has been full attacking, leading him to be more vulnerable unless he is in the middle of things. All in all, very curious what you all think of the builds, and if you think they show the APG fighter at the very least isn't worse at dual wielding, and at the best is a bit better at it then Core but trades out some AC for the priviledge.
Core Male Human Fighter 18
Str: 24 (+7) [7 points, +3 levels, +6 enhance.]
Dex: 25 (+7) [10 points, +2 race, +1 level, +6 enhance]
Con: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 enhance.]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Cha: 8 (-2) [-2 points]
Class and Racial abilities:
Bravery +5
Armor Training 4
Weapon Training (light blades +4, bows +3, heavy blades +2, polearms +1)
Hit Dice: 18d10(8)
Hit Points: 146+90+18=254
AC: 42 (+14 Armor, +7 Dexterity, +5 deflection, +4 natural, +1 haste, +1 shield) [Touch 23, Flat-footed 35]
Init: +17 (+7 Dex)
Speed: 60ft (+30 haste)
Saves:
Fortitude +21 [+11 base, +5 Con, +5 Resist.]
Reflex +20 [+6 base, +7 Dex, +2 feat, +5 Resist.] 1/day re-roll failed save
Will +18 [+6 base, +5 Wis, +2 Feat, +5 Resist.], +5 vs fear, 1/day re-roll failed save
BAB: +18
Melee Atk: +33/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18 (1d4+16 / 15-20x2)
(Attack Breakdown: 18 BAB, +7 Str, +4 Weapon Training, +5 Enhancement, +1 haste, -2 two weapon fighting)
(Damage Breakdown: 7 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +4 Weapon Training)
Ranged Atk: +34/+34/+29/+24/+19 (1d8+15 20x3)
(Attack Breakdown: 18 BAB, +7 Dex, +3 Weapon Training, +5 enhancement, +1 haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 7 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +3 Weapon Training)
CMB: +25 (18 BAB, +7 Str)
CMD: +32 (18BAB, +7 Str, +7 Dex)
Skills:
Acrobatics +25 (+18 ranks, +7 dex)
Stealth +25 (+18 ranks, +7 dex)
Feats:
Two Weapon Fighting(Human bonus)
Weapon Focus: Kukri (Fighter bonus)
Iron Will(1 HD)
Double Slice (Fighter bonus)
Lighting Reflexes (3 HD)
Weapon Specialization: Kukri (Fighter bonus)
Improved Iron Will (5 HD)
Imp Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter bonus)
Improved Lighting Reflexes (7 HD)
Greater Weapon Focus: Kukri (Fighter bonus)
Improved Critical: Kukri (9 HD)
Critical Focus(Fighter bonus)
Greater Two Weapon Fighting (11 HD)
Two Weapon Rend (Fighter bonus)
Staggering Critical (13 HD)
Penetrating Strike(Fighter bonus)
Blinding Critical (15 HD)
Greater Penetrating Strike (Fighter bonus)
Stunning Critical (17 HD)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Kukri (Fighter bonus)
Equipment:
+5 mithral full plate (35.5K)
2x +5 kukri (616+100K)
+5 composite longbow 7str (51.1k)
belt of physical might +6 (144k)
headband of inspired wisdom +6 (36k)
boots of speed (12k)
cloak of resistance +5 (25k)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40k)
+5 Ring of Protection (50k)
+4 Amulet of Natural Armor (32k)
Money:
530,000g WBL - 3,784 remaining for arrows/potions/etc
Full-attack w/haste DPR: 140.6
Full-attack w/o haste DPR: 112.61875
Single Attack DPR: 22.2
APG Male Human Fighter 18
Str: 24 (+7) [7 points, +3 levels, +6 enhance.]
Dex: 25 (+7) [10 points, +2 race, +1 level, +6 enhance]
Con: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 enhance.]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Cha: 8 (-2) [-2 points]
Class and Racial abilities:
Bravery +5
Defensive Flurry (+4 dodge AC when making full attack with 2 weapons)
Twin Blades(+4 attack/dmg with full attack with 2 weapons)
Doublestrike(Standard action to attack once with primary and secondary weapon)
Improved Balance (Penalties reduced by 1, or can use 1 handed weapon as light in offhand)
Equal Opportunity(Can attack once with Primary and Secondary with AoOs)
Perfect Balance(Penalties reduced by an additional 1 unless using 1 hand weapon as light)
Deft Doublestrike(When hits with both weapons, can make disarm or sunder as immediate action that does not provoke)
Hit Dice: 18d10(8)
Hit Points: 146+90+18=254
AC: 38 (+14 Armor, +3 Dexterity, +5 deflection, +4 natural, +1 haste, +1 shield) Touch 18, Flat-footed 34] (Defensive Flurry +4 after full attack)
Init: +17 (+7 Dex)
Speed: 50ft (+30 haste)
Saves:
Fortitude +21 [+11 base, +5 Con, +5 Resist.]
Reflex +20 [+6 base, +7 Dex, +2 feat, +5 Resist.] 1/day re-roll failed save
Will +18 [+6 base, +5 Wis, +2 Feat, +5 Resist.], +5 vs fear, 1/day re-roll failed save
BAB: +18
Melee Atk: +35/+35/+35/+30/+30/+25/+25/+20 (1d4+16 / 15-20x2)
(Attack Breakdown: 18 BAB, +7 Str, +4 Twin Blades, +5 Enhancement, +1 haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 7 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +4 Twin Blades)
Ranged Atk: +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 (1d8+12 20x3)
(Attack Breakdown: 18 BAB, +7 Dex, +5 enhancement, +1 haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 7 Strength, +5 Enhancement)
CMB: +25 (18 BAB, +7 Str)
CMD: +32 (18BAB, +7 Str, +7 Dex)
Skills:
Acrobatics +22 (+18 ranks, +7 dex -3AC penalty)
Stealth +22 (+18 ranks, +7 dex -3AC penalty)
Feats:
Two Weapon Fighting(Human bonus)
Weapon Focus: kukri (Fighter bonus)
Iron Will(1 HD)
Double Slice (Fighter bonus)
Lighting Reflexes (3 HD)
Weapon Specialization: kukri (Fighter bonus)
Improved Iron Will (5 HD)
Imp Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter bonus)
Improved Lighting Reflexes (7 HD)
Greater Weapon Focus: kukri (Fighter bonus)
Improved Critical: kukri (9 HD)
Critical Focus(Fighter bonus)
Greater Two Weapon Fighting (11 HD)
Two Weapon Rend (Fighter bonus)
Staggering Critical (13 HD)
Penetrating Strike(Fighter bonus)
Blinding Critical (15 HD)
Greater Penetrating Strike (Fighter bonus)
Stunning Critical (17 HD)
Greater Weapon Specialization: kukri (Fighter bonus)
Equipment:
+5 mithral full plate (35.5K)
2x +5 kukri (616+100K)
+5 composite longbow 7str (51.1k)
belt of physical might +6 (144k)
headband of inspired wisdom +6 (36k)
boots of speed (12k)
cloak of resistance +5 (25k)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40k)
+5 Ring of Protection (50k)
+4 Amulet of Natural Armor (32k)
Money:
530,000g WBL - 3,784 remaining for arrows/potions/etc
Full-attack w/haste DPR: 151.2375
Full-attack w/o haste DPR: 123.71875
Single Attack DPR: 42.55