I am hoping some friendly, helpful folks here can help me make a good interpretive call on this, as I work on a project.
Here is the animate plants spell description, emphasis mine:
School transmutation; Level druid 7
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one Large plant per three caster levels or all plants within range; see text
Duration 1 round/level or 1 hour/level; see text
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance noYou imbue inanimate plants with mobility and a semblance of life. Each animated plant then immediately attacks whomever or whatever you initially designate as though it were an animated object of the appropriate size category. You may animate one Large or smaller plant, or a number of larger plants as follows: a Huge plant counts as two Large or smaller plants, a Gargantuan plant as four, and a Colossal plant as eight. You can change the designated target or targets as a move action, as if directing an active spell.
Use the statistics for animated objects, except that plants smaller than Large don't have hardness.
Animate plants cannot affect plant creatures, nor does it affect nonliving vegetable material.
Entangle: Alternatively, you may imbue all plants within range with a degree of mobility, which allows them to entwine around creatures in the area. This usage of the spell duplicates the effect of an entangle spell. Spell resistance does not keep creatures from being entangled. This effect lasts 1 hour per caster level.
And here is the description of the entangle spell, emphasis mine:
School transmutation; Level druid 1, ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text; Spell Resistance: noThis spell causes tall grass, weeds, and other plants to wrap around foes in the area of effect or those that enter the area. Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. Creatures that make their save can move as normal, but those that remain in the area must save again at the end of your turn. Creatures that move into the area must save immediately. Those that fail must end their movement and gain the entangled condition. Entangled creatures can attempt to break free as a move action, making a Strength or Escape Artist check. The DC for this check is equal to the DC of the spell. The entire area of effect is considered difficult terrain while the effect lasts.
If the plants in the area are covered in thorns, those in the area take 1 point of damage each time they fail a save against the entangle or fail a check made to break free. Other effects, depending on the local plants, might be possible at GM discretion.
My question: does animate plants, when "duplicating the effect of an entangle spell," allow a save to avoid being entangled?
You will note the description of animate plants, under the entangle option, specifies spell resistance does nothing, but it says nothing about a saving throw. Yes, the animate plants description says "saving throw none" but I am wondering if that is meant to apply to the first use of the spell, not the second, since the second use says "duplicates the effects" without otherwise stipulating anything.
I would say strictest reading of RAW would say it does NOT allow a save, since that's what's in the animate plants description, and higher level spell would override lower level spell, but my intuitive/interpretive/common sense response says creatures should still get a save to avoid being entangled (the advanced effects being that the save would be more difficult and the effect lasts for an hour).
For the record, the reason I am asking is I am compiling spell cards to share with my players (and anyone else interested), and I am trying to provide "complete" descriptions of spells where I can include them whenever possible (i.e., if a spell says, "As xyz spell, but..." I include the description of xyz spell so they only have to check one spell card, not two or several). I pasted the text of entangle into the animate plants and then noticed the issue--so I am trying to decide if I leave the clause about the saving throw intact or delete it. I'd like to have some other thoughts to weigh before finalizing the card. Thank you in advance for your help. (And yes, I am aware there are spell cards already made, but I would like to complete this project regardless.)
As DM, i would allow a saving throw, but based on a 7th level spell.
It is hard to accept that there would be no saving throw allowed against it as it is duplicating an effect which is moderated by saving throws.
"Creatures that fail their save gain the entangled condition. "
Well if you aren't making a saving throw, you have nothing to fail and do not gain the entangled condition. The only way it can successfully duplicate entangle is to allow saves.
...what? How does "no saving throw" equal "automatically making the saving throw?" That's like saying all spells without saving throws don't work.
The plants intelligently wrap around creatures to entangle them. They don't get to dodge out of the way.
The plants intelligently wrap around creatures to entangle them. They don't get to dodge out of the way.
Which they clearly should be able to do. As such I believe the intent is that the save carries over (but uses 7th-level DCs).
I want to make an additional point
Spell resistance does not keep creatures from being entangled
This does not make sense. Neither spell is subject to Spell Resistance to begin with. The only way that caveat makes sense is if it REALLY meant that the creature cannot save to not become entangled.
I have a better question..
If the spell duplicates the effect of an "Entangle" spell.
Then do you use the Range or the Animate Plants spell or of the Entange spell.
What about the Area of Effect.
............
Really the Animate Plants spell, it just a more powerful Entangle spell, were the only change to Entangle; is DC based on 7th level spell, and the duration was specifically changed to 1 hour per level.
I want to make an additional point
Spell resistance does not keep creatures from being entangled
This does not make sense. Neither spell is subject to Spell Resistance to begin with. The only way that caveat makes sense is if it REALLY meant that the creature cannot save to not become entangled.
I though that was just a hold over from 2nd ed, when spells did not list weather they were effected by spell resistance or not.
I though that was just a hold over from 2nd ed, when spells did not list weather they were effected by spell resistance or not.I want to make an additional point
Spell resistance does not keep creatures from being entangled
This does not make sense. Neither spell is subject to Spell Resistance to begin with. The only way that caveat makes sense is if it REALLY meant that the creature cannot save to not become entangled.
Then it is still a failure to review spells for inconsistencies before porting them to Pathfinder.
Also, they don't include that line or any like it in Entangle. It only exists in Animate Plants.
Could it be interpreted that they're considering the target of Animate Plants to be the plants, which don't get a saving throw against being animated?
Well, the spell says it duplicates the "effects" or Entangle. Saving Throws and Spell Resistance is not an "effect" of a spell. It's what is used to avoid being effected by the effects. So, the Animate Plants just a more powerful version of the Entangle spell.
This is how I read it also.