We just converted our TOEE game from Ad&D 1st edition to Pathfinder and I am trying to suss our evil cleric's newly empowered undead control skills. He gets a lot more HD worth of undead!
He wants to make his burgeoning army of zombies into Fast Zombies. (He also maintains them in pristine condition! They get to ride in the cart. A few have names. This guy is really into his zombies! I love it. ;-)
So to restate the main question, does a controlled variant zombie count double against a caster's HD control limit?
Also, can he cast Remove Paralysis on a Zombie at any time or only when first raising them? What about buffing other caster's zombies?
I think maybe the rules aren't clear on this stuff. Any house rules would be helpful too.
I have noticed several messageboard posts that state any variant undead count double and cite the Skeleton entry in the Bestiary. Referring to said Bestiary, I read that bloody or burning skellies count twice as much. It says nothing about the HD count of Fast Zombies, or Plague Zombies, or any other sort of variant undead that I could find.
So it seems the answer to my main question is no, variant zombies count the same as normal zombies.
Thing is, Fast Zombies are quite a bit more powerful. No longer Staggered + Quick Strikes ~= twice the damage output, right? Does losing DR 5/Slashing compensate for this IYO?
So I am thinking of a house rule counting them as +1 HD, so your basic human fast zombie counts as 3.
Thanks for reading through the rambling :-)
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This guy is really into his zombies! I love it. ;-)
Then may I suggest incorporating these (and these) variant undead templates as well. Also, Classic Horrors Revisted has at least one variant template that I love: the boneshard skeleton. That might not be what it is called, but that's what I call it.
So to restate the main question, does a controlled variant zombie count double against a caster's HD control limit?
Nope; I'd say that's because the variant zombies are not much tougher than their standard counterparts. An argument could be made for fast zombies (and you started making it!); see below.
Also, can he cast Remove Paralysis on a Zombie at any time or only when first raising them? What about buffing other caster's zombies?
The timing of when to cast the extra spell is purposely left vague (for individual GMs to dress up however they like). In the second article I linked above is my take on how it should work. I don't see the extra spell as a buff, but rather as part of a ritual that takes place during creation, so you couldn't turn a standard zombie into a fast zombie.
So I am thinking of a house rule counting them as +1 HD, so your basic human fast zombie counts as 3.
In my opinion there is a very narrow level-versus-CR window where fast zombies are "too good." Specifically: when the characters are brand spanking new. Other than in that one instance, a HD tax on fast zombies just makes it harder for a villain to drum up a decent number of them.
Now, if it's a player making use of fast zombies, your house rule might be just what the doctor ordered.
Thanks! That's exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for. Since the players are level 6, I'll just keep the zombies at the RAW cost.
Both PC's and bad guys are doing the animating.
I had overlooked the small level window where it matters. They are past that point, so a few low-powered zombies more or less won't be that big of a strength difference. Especially since they're mostly for RP flavor and guarding the home base from your average village sneak.
The real battle use for them so far seems to be setting up flanking situations. And cannon fodder. Any that get killed are replaced from the freshly killed pile of unfortunate minions who picked the wrong evil master to follow.
Although there seems to be a lot more leeway for different types of undead now that Animate Dead works on more than just "humans". I guess I have been away from D&D-based games for a long time. lol
The variants in the article look like a lot of fun.. for me the DM hahaha. Also for the player, I guess. ;-)
Thanks again