When druids were changed from 2nd ed over to 3rd ed.
Why were they not changed to a spontaneous caster class??
The old 2nd ed Ability requirements were Wis 12, Cha 15.
So with such a high charima requirement back in 2nd ed, why did they drop that in 3rd, and not make druids a Cha based caster.
Wasn't druid a Bard kit of some sort back then?
Been a while, but I think they were like a specialty priest.
Edit: You, sir, are a ninja by 9 seconds.
In Basic D&D druid was a Prestige class of Cleric.
In 1st and 2nd Druids were there own Class. The minum requirement for taking that class was Wis 12, and Charisma 15.
My question is that when they changed over to 3rd ed, and added the sorcerer class to the game.
Why did they not change Druid to Spontaneousness caster class, since they already required such a High Chaimsa score as a requirement in past ed??
Wasn't druid a Bard kit of some sort back then?No it was an actual separate class defined in those days as a subclass of Cleric.
What you might be thinking of is that the original Bard required dual class progression through the Fighter and Druid class first before taking Bard levels. And it was a strictly optional class option shoved into the last pages of the Player's Handbook.
Actually, the original Bard progressed through Fighter and Thief classes before becoming a Bard. As a Bard, the character gained access to Druid spells.
Why did they not change Druid to Spontaneousness caster class, since they already required such a High Chaimsa score as a requirement in past ed??
Many reasons probably. The two that immediately stand out in my mind:
They may have wanted every class to have its own unique feel, and by making the Druid a spontaneous and/or a Charisma based caster it would take away the only thing that made the Sorcerer unique (seriously, no class abilities past familiar - that spontaneous full casting progression was all he had).
Druid became quite the powerhouse as it was in the 3.X era. To give it spontaneous casting would've either made it far too strong by having its entire spell list available on top of its numerous other class abilities, or many of its very situational spells (that you could normallly prepare to help with a situation with a bit of forewarning) would NEVER be used, past perhaps on spells.
Of course eventually the Spirit Shaman saw release where you cast spontaneously but swapped out your spells known on a daily basis which was a quite reconciliation to the second problem.
Edit: I should add another. Charisma in 3.X defined few of their abilities. I believe they had Diplomacy and Wild Empathy, and past that Charisma was pretty useless for them. Since it wasn't a prime requisite, like it was for the Sorcerer, it didn't cast spontaneously like the Sorcerer. Later on in 3.5 with the release of supplements, Charisma based, spontaneous divine casters appeared; the Favored Soul and the Spirit Shaman.
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Spontaneous has nothing to do with CHA. The paladin's spells are CHA based and they do not cast spontaneously. Also, 1st and 2nd edition special classes like druid, ranger, paladin, assassin, and illusionist had multiple stat requirements before you could make such a character.
In 3rd edition that was all dropped. Certain stats were better but not required. So your holding up CHA as a suggestion that they should be spontaneous fails on two counts.
Finally, the design decision to make them spontaneous vs memorizing I only can theorize upon. My best guess is that in giving them shape change and an animal companion they thought the druid had plenty of flexibility already and that they should continue to memorize spells. Alternately, they may have only wanted to try the spontaneous caster thing with just the sorcerer.
Ultimately the design decision does not matter. If you want to have a spontaneous druid then work it out with your DM. If you can come to an accord that pleases everyone then more power to you.
The Spontaneous class are bard, sorcerer, and oracle..... They all use Charisma as there main stat.
When the changed to 3.0 ed, they were trying to make Charisma more important. So i was just trying to figure out why they dropped it for Druids, and made the pure Wisdom.
Spontaneous class would have resulted in limiting there spell use, (just like the sorcerer). As you would then have the same chart of spells know. The fact that druid can Wildshape, gives them something more to fall back on, instead of being a pure caster.
........
Anyway, was just fliping throw my 2nd ed D&D and notice that Cha had to be 15. Made me wonder why they did not make druid spontaneous?
Well, the inquisitor is also a spontaneous caster--but they use Wisdom as their casting stat. That's Pathfinder, however, and doesn't really answer your question!
I suppose--short of asking Monte Cook or any of the other original 3.0 developers--it's very difficult to get a definite answer to your inquiry.
If it's any consolation: druids are a pretty great class, even without spontaneous casting, and they can spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells. :)
EDIT: Perhaps this thread would be most appropriate in the D&D 3.5/d20/OGL threads?
Well, the inquisitor is also a spontaneous caster--but they use Wisdom as their casting stat. That's Pathfinder, however, and doesn't really answer your question!
I suppose--short of asking Monte Cook or any of the other original 3.0 developers--it's very difficult to get a definite answer to your inquiry.
If it's any consolation: druids are a pretty great class, even without spontaneous casting, and they can spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells. :)
EDIT: Perhaps this thread would be most appropriate in the D&D 3.5/d20/OGL threads?
+1
Oh well curiosity killed the wildshape Druid Cat :)
+1
Oh well curiosity killed the wildshape Druid Cat :)
. . . As well as the animal companion cat! Wow, that was a horrible "joke", on my part! :D
Spontaneous has nothing to do with CHA. The paladin's spells are CHA based and they do not cast spontaneously.
Ahh, but in 3.X the Paladin cast based on WIS, not CHA. Not that the stat used for casting has anything to do with it anyway.
I think the OP's question is a valid one. It's a design question not a rules question. There's no reason why the Druid couldn't have been built from the ground up as a spontaneous caster, with all the appropriate mechanics in place. When 3rd edition was being built based on the d20 system, everything was new and they could have redefined how things work however they wanted (much like they've done to a degree with 4E).
I think they wanted to make the Druid more unique from the Cleric however. Really, Wizards and Sorcerers (in 3rd edition) are pretty close to one another. They both use the same spell list, cast the same type of spells, want mostly the same kind of equipment and magic items. The only real difference is one of technique and that the Wizard will tend to have more skills because of the focus on INT.
With Druids and Clerics, about the only thing they share is the fact they both cast divine spells based on Wisdom. Everything else, from weapon proficiencies, armor, skill sets, and class features, are vastly different.
I also think that spontaneous casting was seen to be fairly powerful at that time. As someone pointed out, it's really the only thing that Sorcerers get. The thinking at the time probably felt that if they wanted the Druid to have all the other nifty things they get (wild shape, animal companion, various other bits and bobs), AND be a full caster alternative to the Cleric, they'd have to be a prepared caster. Had they gone with spontaneous, the Druid would have likely ended up with being only a partial caster like the Bard.
IIRC, AD&D druids got druid followers at higher levels, which would mean they needed to be leaders. Also, the high charisma requirement meant that only an exceptional few had what it took to be druids, so they were rare, and got rarer as you approached the "great druid" level cap of 14.
The 3X druid was a regular 20-level class, and didn't automatically attract followers.
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IIRC, AD&D druids got druid followers at higher levels, which would mean they needed to be leaders. Also, the high charisma requirement meant that only an exceptional few had what it took to be druids, so they were rare, and got rarer as you approached the "great druid" level cap of 14.
The 3X druid was a regular 20-level class, and didn't automatically attract followers.
And in those days, the druid (as well as the assassin and monk) had to defeat other members of the organization to advance past a certain level. As I recall, the PC would gain the level temporarily, and then face another character (usually an NPC) in single combat. If the PC lost, he would lose enough experience to put him at the beginning of the level. Except assassins - one had to murder a higher level assassin (not an easy task) to advance beyond a certain point.
I always think everything could be a trap. That is why I am still alive.
PC assassins always had to be careful. The DM could have another assassin try to murder them at any time. PC druids and monks would at least know when someone tried to take their positions. The whole thing would be open and aboveboard.
Spontaneous has nothing to do with CHA. The paladin's spells are CHA based and they do not cast spontaneously.Ahh, but in 3.X the Paladin cast based on WIS, not CHA. Not that the stat used for casting has anything to do with it anyway.
I think the OP's question is a valid one. It's a design question not a rules question. There's no reason why the Druid couldn't have been built from the ground up as a spontaneous caster, with all the appropriate mechanics in place. When 3rd edition was being built based on the d20 system, everything was new and they could have redefined how things work however they wanted (much like they've done to a degree with 4E).
I think they wanted to make the Druid more unique from the Cleric however. Really, Wizards and Sorcerers (in 3rd edition) are pretty close to one another. They both use the same spell list, cast the same type of spells, want mostly the same kind of equipment and magic items. The only real difference is one of technique and that the Wizard will tend to have more skills because of the focus on INT.
With Druids and Clerics, about the only thing they share is the fact they both cast divine spells based on Wisdom. Everything else, from weapon proficiencies, armor, skill sets, and class features, are vastly different.
I also think that spontaneous casting was seen to be fairly powerful at that time. As someone pointed out, it's really the only thing that Sorcerers get. The thinking at the time probably felt that if they wanted the Druid to have all the other nifty things they get (wild shape, animal companion, various other bits and bobs), AND be a full caster alternative to the Cleric, they'd have to be a prepared caster. Had they gone with spontaneous, the Druid would have likely ended up with being only a partial caster like the Bard.
I agree although I think that both clerics and druids got the same casting mechanic for the spontaneous spells they DID get, as an extrapolation of priests and druids being very closely tied together in 2nd ed. If they had been made like bards, then they would have had vastly more toned down abilities.
Yes you're right.. I have never seen anyone ever do the 1st edition Bard.
I saw a few when I first started at the Ball State student center. But even then, most of the groups changed the druidic progression of spells to picking from the illusionist's spell lists. They felt that contributed more along the lines of entertainers.
After that, I only knew one person to attempt one and we quit first edition when second came out. I wanted to try it, but lacked the patience.
But they really were a hard class to get into, hence being in the back of the book. Str, wix, dex, cha fifteen or more, int 12 or more and con 10 or more. Must have neutral in the alignment. Must be human or half elf. Start as fighters til 5th and not go past 8th. Then become thieves til 5th and not past 9th. Then they start off as Rhymer (probationer) bards. Oh, and you cannot associate with any bard of lesser level than you till you get to 23rd level Bard.
Sorry for threadjack.
At the time of first edition, I just saw the Charisma requirement as a way to limit the choice. There were lots of examples of that. The sub-classes were always harder to get into. But I also saw them as more caretakers of the woodlands and clerics more a battle priest. So the charisma made sense as a secondary attribute to the druid.
As to the spontaneous casting, it was a brand new D&D concept to me when third came out. I never saw a need for it. Maybe the designers didn't think there needed to be a divine spontaneous caster? As for current, we have oracles :P
Greg
Edit: It was fun pulling my book from the shelf. I forgot how much this lil book changed my life.
Actuall question should rather be: why, when moving from AD&D 2nd edition to D&D 3rd edition, Druid should be made spontaneous spellcaster? I don't think that there were little reason to do that. The fact that 2nd edition druid required lots of Charisma does not mean that he should cast spells spontaneously - Paladin required lots of it in 2nd edition as well and didn't became spontaneous caster during the transition.
True....
But Paladin Lay on Hands was changed, so that it now relies on Charisma.
Cleric Channel Energy (Turn Undead in 3.5) was changed, so that it now relies on Charisma.
.....
I remember them saying on the old WotC D&D 3.0 boards, when they were getting ready to do the change over. That they said, this was because they wanted Charisma to be a wanted stat and no longer a dump stat.
It may have already been mentioned... but (probably) the biggest reason that the druid was not made a spontaneous caster was because they have always had to prepare their spells in advance. Its one of those Sacred Cow things.
Yes you're right.. I have never seen anyone ever do the 1st edition Bard.
They would have been rare because you needed four 15's, a 12, and a 10 in your stats to qualify.
I had a character that was working toward bard, but I only got to 3rd level of fighter before the campaign ended. It was the highest level I ever achieved in 1st edition with a character that started at 1st level.
It may have already been mentioned... but (probably) the biggest reason that the druid was not made a spontaneous caster was because they have always had to prepare their spells in advance. Its one of those Sacred Cow things.
This is my guess above and beyond anything else. D&D players have traditionally tended to be the same kinds of people who get upset when there is a discrepancy between the color of a lightsaber in a book and movie of the Star Wars setting. They take their arbitrary sacred cows very seriously. Just look at the outrage over 4e; it wasn't because the mechanics were bad, it was because they didn't adhere to the traditional concepts of the classes said mechanics represented. This sacred cow tradition is even somewhat evidenced by the mere fact this question was asked.
The sorcerer introduced the concept of spontaneous casting into 3.x. The bard was altered to spontaneous casting as well since it was the only other Charisma-based casting class and they desired some level of internal consistency to reward the concept of game mastery. We can speculate that, at the launch of 3.x, the concept was indeed that Charisma was linked to spontaneous casting, probably because it was meant to represent a more impulsive bending of the universe to one's will rather than rigorous study or pious adherence to a given dogma. But maybe not. What is certain is that the druid had not traditionally been a spontaneous caster, and so without some kind of overwhelmingly compelling reason to alter it into the new spellcasting paradigm, it was left as a prepared spellcaster. Perhaps the thought to change the druid was brought up and dismissed, perhaps it never entered the designer's minds. No one but they can say now, but I would bet money that it had next to nothing to do with design philosophy, but rather was an adherence to tradition first and foremost.
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Sorry for the slight thread necromancy, but I just ran across this thread!
If I may, perhaps The Expanded Shaman from Open Design is just what folks in this thread are looking for? :)