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Do non-humanoid PCs, even those without racial hit dice such as sylphs or undines, add their type's class skills to their own? That is to say, do all native outsiders automatically have Bluff, Craft, Knowledge (planes), Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth as class skills?
Anybody?
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A creature without racial hit die loses its skills when it takes its first class level and replaces all those racial skills and skillpoints with the appropriate class skills.
An example can be found on page 308 of the bestiary under humanoid.
note the section from page 313-314 about adding monster pc's to a table.
Creatures with more than one hit die retain their racial skills and skillpoints.
Pathfinder's outlook on monster characters is basically to keep them even. If you have monster player characters, try to have all the players in your game use monster pcs. If you have a mixed table, then power levels will be skewed a bit. And some monsters are just not suitable for pcs. GM's call, as always.
Note that the sylph and undine both as per bestiary 2 don't possess any skill that their class wouldn't give to them. Well, the undine gets a swim skill bonus for having a swim speed, but that's from movement type.
The text on page 308 of the Bestiary refers only to humanoid characters:
Humanoids with a character class use their class' skill list instead."
No other creature type has similar text however, which is why I'm asking if it's merely a matter of a similar mention having been omitted from the other types or if its an intentional distinction for humanoids.
From what I can see, RAW, all outsiders (as an example) received a set of class skills regardless of their having racial hit dice or not. This would seem to carry over for PC as well as NPC monsters.
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The problem here is that all approved player characters are humanoid, so that's where most of this detailing went.
Ok, here's another example. The Aasimar on pabe 7 of the bestiary has two parts to it. The statted cleric, which has a bunch of skills and racial modifiers, and the entry about aasimar characters.
Under aasimar characters, you see that the aasimar, though being an outsider, does not possess default class skills. Those only come when a creature keeps its racial hitdice.
Under aasimar characters, you see that the aasimar, though being an outsider, does not possess default class skills.
Though true that the there character section doesn't make any mention of an outsider's class skills, nor does it make any mention of the aasimar being of the outsider type. But it being of the outsider type, one naturally would expect to read up on the type's description for any pertinent details. That'd seem to include a set of class skills and other things such as proficiency with all simple and martial weapons...
I appreciate what you're saying, and you may very well be right about everything. Thanks very much for responding; i do appreciate it. I'm just saying that, from what I can see, the RAW don't appear to clearly reflect what you're saying. I guess I'm just hoping to see something more definitive on the matter.
Yes, they would add their "racial" class skills to their normal class skills, but remember, for all class levels, you use their class for skill points, not their race.
EDIT: Most races that do not possess racial hit die also do not possess racial class skills.
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Yes, they would add their "racial" class skills to their normal class skills, but remember, for all class levels, you use their class for skill points, not their race.
EDIT: Most races that do not possess racial hit die also do not possess racial class skills.
Clarification here. Racial modifiers, they get to keep. Such as keen senses. Skill points from having more than one racial hit die they get to keep, as well as certain skills being class skills if they have more than one hd.
If they only have 1 hd, they lose their racial skill points and replace their racial class skills with their actual class skill points and class skills. Note that they also replace their racial 1hd with whatever hd their class uses.
When you're running monster characters, there aren't many definitive answers. Best suggestion I can give you is try to keep things balanced.
i'm going to do some comparisons between humans and outsiders if you allow them to keep their racial skills as class skills, and/or their skill ranks. Taking a one-hd creature that is supposed to be equal to the core races, and giving them extra class skills and skillpoints over what a core race gets puts them over the curve. Skills are very powerful in this game, and those extra skills and skillpoints will result in that many more skills with +4 before stat mods.
A quick example here: A human rogue can start with a 20 int, and get 8+5(int)+1(human)+1(favored class) for 15 skill points at level one.
An outsider, granted his class skills and skill points, would get the following:
Assuming an outsider with +2 int, first level rogue
8+5(int)+1(favored class) + 6+5(int mod)+ 4(varied nature) for 29 skill points. Almost double the human rogue.
A human fighter gets ten class skills for his 2+int skill points.
An outsider fighter would get 15 class skills. That's a 50% increase. In the end, your campaign, your concept of balance, assuming you're the dm. If not, just hit him up with the question and let him make the call. Either way, good luck :)
I don't think that he was saying that an Assimar would get more skill points, but would keep the weapon and armor proficiencies, as well as the outsider class skills. Not that they would get their class skill points and outsider skill points for every HD.
I don't think that he was saying that an Assimar would get more skill points, but would keep the weapon and armor proficiencies, as well as the outsider class skills. Not that they would get their class skill points and outsider skill points for every HD.
Exactly right.