Just to start off:
Got an interesting reply from SKR about the Hide in Plain Sight and Hellcat Stealth question I had posted awhile back.Questions regarding the feat Hellcat Stealth. Is this meant to work like the Hide in Plain Sight class feature? Do you need cover/concealment?
Considering it is meant to resemble the Hellcat special ability I almost want to treat it like invisibility only with stealth checks.and...
Sean K Reynolds wrote:They work similarly. HS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but you have a penalty on the check. HIPS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but it requires a nearby shadow, and has no penalty.
The feat is pretty straitforward, it basically adds a new mechanic to the stealth skill (being able to make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, -10 penalty). This trumps the other requirements in these circumstances.
Now, since darkvision pretty much cuts out concealment, how does this feat interact with darkvision´(if, indeed it does). It may seem like a silly question from a RAW standpoint, however it makes little sense that you can hide perfectly in light but when it comes to darkvision (especially if you`re aware of the creature having darkvision) it's suddenly nullified (except from a balance standpoint). Which leads me to my next question: is there a feat or such that can allow you to Stealth in darkness against creatures with darkvision without the need for cover, besides Hide In Plain Sight, invisibility or other obvious methods.
Hey would you mind adding a link to that specific reply by SKR. Is his word final/official? I ask because that makes the feat far more powerful than I had thought. The text of the feat says nothing about trumping concealment/cover so I had thought the feat simulated the Ranger version of HiPS without the Ranger's Camouflage ability. So in the light you would be able to hide while observed, but you would still require concealment or cover to do it. However, if his reply is official, then the feat is far more powerful and worth perusing.
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Now, since darkvision pretty much cuts out concealment, how does this feat interact with darkvision´(if, indeed it does).
Darkvision specifically negates the benefit of concealment granted by dim light or darkness, nothing else. Now, most people read that one sentence in the DV description that says you can't hide within DV range and say it's impossible to use Stealth vs. DV under any circumstances. You have to read the whole thing. DV isn't magical in any way and it doesn't eliminate the presence of shadows in the area or produce light. All DV does is allow the creature to see in dim light and darkness with the same accuracy as normal vision is able to see in bright or normal light. The shadows are still there, but the creature with DV can see perfectly in shadows, negating the concealment effect of dim light or darkness, which in turn cripples the ability to use Stealth in dim light or darkness. DV also specifically states that it doesn't see through any magical effects. So there are a few basic reasons why DV doesn't in any way spoil the use of HiPS. I could go into more detail if necessary or provide links to detailed point by point arguments on why DV doesn't defeat HiPS. That said, it has no bearing on the relationship of DV and Hellcat Stealth. DV should never affect Hellcat Stealth in any way. DV doesn't eliminate the ability to use Stealth in its range; it eliminates the benefit of concealment from dim light and darkness within its range. But with Hellcat Stealth you aren't relying on the concealment granted by dim light or darkness to use Stealth, so DV would not defeat Hellcat Stealth either.
is there a feat or such that can allow you to Stealth in darkness against creatures with darkvision without the need for cover, besides Hide In Plain Sight, invisibility or other obvious methods.
The 3.5 feat Darkstalker from Lords of Madness allows you to use Stealth against most or all special forms of sight/senses to include DV.
Hey would you mind adding a link to that specific reply by SKR. Is his word final/official? I ask because that makes the feat far more powerful than I had thought. The text of the feat says nothing about trumping concealment/cover so I had thought the feat simulated the Ranger version of HiPS without the Ranger's Camouflage ability. So in the light you would be able to hide while observed, but you would still require concealment or cover to do it. However, if his reply is official, then the feat is far more powerful and worth perusing.
....
Now, since darkvision pretty much cuts out concealment, how does this feat interact with darkvision´(if, indeed it does).Darkvision specifically negates the benefit of concealment granted by dim light or darkness, nothing else. Now, most people read that one sentence in the DV description that says you can't hide within DV range and say it's impossible to use Stealth vs. DV under any circumstances. You have to read the whole thing. DV isn't magical in any way and it doesn't eliminate the presence of shadows in the area or produce light. All DV does is allow the creature to see in dim light and darkness with the same accuracy as normal vision is able to see in bright or normal light. The shadows are still there, but the creature with DV can see perfectly in shadows, negating the concealment effect of dim light or darkness, which in turn cripples the ability to use Stealth in dim light or darkness. DV also specifically states that it doesn't see through any magical effects. So there are a few basic reasons why DV doesn't in any way spoil the use of HiPS. I could go into more detail if necessary or provide links to detailed point by point arguments on why DV doesn't defeat HiPS. That said, it has no bearing on the relationship of DV and Hellcat Stealth. DV should never affect Hellcat Stealth in any way. DV doesn't eliminate the ability to use Stealth in its range; it eliminates the benefit of concealment from dim light and darkness within its...
Here is the link to that.
The way I read the feat was that it simply gave you a new set of conditions that could allow you to use Stealth as opposed to you having to fulfill the original requirements as well. Such as, because you have this feat, being in light or bright light qualifies for Stealth albeit at a -10 penalty, even while you are being observed.
Also, as far as I can tell with the Darkstalker feat, it only allows you to use Stealth vs. Perception on monsters who would normally auto detect you with blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, or scent. There is no mention of darkvision unless there is an errata. Which would be awesome because I really love the flavor, and benefits, of that feat.
I am asking these questions because I am trying to optimize a rogue while staying away from specifically supernatural, or magical effects in general within the build.
Here is the link to that.
Thanks.
The way I read the feat was that it simply gave you a new set of conditions that could allow you to use Stealth as opposed to you having to fulfill the original requirements as well. Such as, because you have this feat, being in light or bright light qualifies for Stealth albeit at a -10 penalty, even while you are being observed.
Well the feat is written similarly to the way Ranger HiPS is written, which doesn't negate the need for cover/concealment. It is the Camouflage ability that allows Rangers to hide without cover/concealment. Hellcat Stealth similarly states you can hide while being observed but doesn't mention anything about negating the requirement of cover/concealment. Which is why I had always thought it was like Ranger HiPS and only allowed Stealth while being observed but didn't negate the need for cover/concealment. If you read other examples of HiPS (Assassin or Shadowdancer) they specifically include references to not needing cover/concealment, HS doesn't. But if that is what one of the game developers is saying that's fine with me.
Also, as far as I can tell with the Darkstalker feat, it only allows you to use Stealth vs. Perception on monsters who would normally auto detect you with blindsense, blindsight, tremorsense, or scent. There is no mention of darkvision unless there is an errata. Which would be awesome because I really love the flavor, and benefits, of that feat.
My mistake, it has been a long time since I went back and read the feat. The only other things I can think of would be HiPS or a Ring of Darkhidden from the Magic Items Compendium. It may be worth noting that Ranger HiPS and Ranger Camouflage are both Extraordinary abilities not Supernatural. So they are natural abilities unlike the magical HiPS abilities that Shadowdancers and Assassins gain. However, that would require being a Ranger instead of a Rogue.