Manyshot & rapid shot

[reefwood]

Dargaard wrote:

I am an experienced DM, having started gaming with D&D in the 80's. Since switching over to Pathfinder recently from 3.5 my group is at odds over the ranger abilities of manyshot and rapid shot. In 3.5 they were standard actions, and therefore couldn't be used together in the same round. I still interpret the pathfinder rules in the core book as allowing a ranger to only use one or the other as part of his full attack action, but not both. For example, we have a 9th level ranger (two attacks per BAB), who feels he can manyshot on his first attack, and then rapid shot for his second attack, completing his full attack action and firing a total of 4 arrows.

Can this be done? Someone please give the official rule on this. We are on the verge of splitting up the group over this--it has gotten that heated! Help!

You can also email me at [e-mail].

Thanks!

Yes, you can use Manyshot and Rapid shot in the same full-attack action. Because the rules are different in Pathfinder. A careful reading of each feat will show this.

Neither one is an actual action by itself. Either must be used when making a full-attack action, but there is nothing in either feat that says it can't be used with the other. Also, there is also nothing in the rules that limits the number of attacks or number of feats that can be used in a full-attack action... well, nothing other than the standard limits based on Base Attack Bonus and anything that may specifically say otherwise. The only restriction is that the "double arrow" from Manyshot must be made on the first attack of the full-attack.

[Alex Freeman]

For reference there was a post about this before.

[Gruuuu]

I see nothing in the rules that precludes the use of both. Neither states that they take "A Standard Action", like Focused Shot. They just say "when you are making a Full-Attack action".

Other than the 3.5 ruling, is there something in PF ruling that makes you believe they shouldn't?

[Drejk]

As far as I can tell Many Shot and Rapid Shot are cumulative. Rapid shot allows one to one extra time but bestow -2 penalty to all ranged attack rolls and work mechanically very similar to Two-Weapon Fighting and may be taken at 1st level.
Many Shot turns first attack into two hits.
Your player is wrong on one thing: that he manyshots on first and then rapid shots on second attack. Rapid Shot is not used on attack, it is used as a part of full-attack.

When using both feats his ranged full attack would look like: +7*/+7/+2. If * hits he hits with two arrows and inflicts damage twice, with exception for critical hit and precision damage.

If you think that it is too much consider this: Two-Weapon Fighting optimised character of this level gains 4 attacks too: two with primary weapon, one with off-hand weapon due to TWF feat and secondary attack with off-hand weapon for Improved TWF. You player gets the benfit that he has to roll one less time, but it is mixed blessing - he gets no chance of inflicting critical hit on the second arrow fired with first attack and with single miss fails two attacks at once.

[mdt]

Dargaard wrote:

Other than the 3.5 ruling, is there something in PF ruling that makes you believe they shouldn't?

I realize the wording of the feats is vague. But when you look at pg 187 in the core book, the heading "FULL ROUND ACTIONS", the first subheading in a full attack action. Since both feats say they are used as part of a full attack action, I interpret that as one or the other, not both. You can't have two full attack actions.

'As part of' means 'While performing'.

Nothing in the rules state you can only use one feat during a full-attack action.

[Mojorat]

IIf you think of Rapid Shot as TWF for bows it might be helpful to think of manyshot as improved TWF for bows. You get it at the same level and the Intent seems to be clear.

Admitedly this example doesnt work as well when you consider you dont need to use the two together but it works for me.

[Shifty]

Drejk wrote:

As far as I can tell Many Shot and Rapid Shot are cumulative. Rapid shot allows one to one extra time but bestow -2 penalty to all ranged attack rolls and work mechanically very similar to Two-Weapon Fighting and may be taken at 1st level.

This.

Also

Here