| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So my summoner's Eidolon can fly, and it's bite attack has the "grab" mutation and the "reach" mutation. The grapple rules say "If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space"
When the Eidolon flies two squares over an enemy's head and grapples successfully, does this move the enemy off the ground? Will this result in fly checks, or force the Eidolon down due to weight? Will the Eidolon crash onto the enemy?
(A related question: suppose my summoner is riding the Eidolon during the above situation, is there any rule that would give him cover against the enemy below? Afaik, riders occupy the same spaces as their mounts, but situations like this obviously put the mount between rider and enemy.)
TO your last question, house-ruling that the rider is no longer in the mount´s space(s) will in most cases mean the target of the mount´s grapple can in no way attack the rider (with non-reach melee). THat´s clearly against the intent of the rules for sharing space with mount, so I would definitely not go there myself. There´s actually a specific option in the Ride skill to gain cover (+4AC) from mount, so they can use that if they want to (I think if you use that option, it would apply in this situation), though it means you can´t take any other actions.
To your first question, what happens is the grapple target is moved adjacent, which will likely move the target off the ground (the mount´s own position isn´t shifted). At this point I think it´s reasonable to apply the target´s weight towards the mount´s encumbrance, which affects the Fly skill. In many cases, they don´t need to make a Fly check so this doesn´t matter, but depending on their movement previously / during the rest of their turn (i.e. if using Fly-By Attack) they may well need to make a Fly check.
Depending on Encumbrance, the mount´s Fly Speed will change which may affect Fly By Attack, but if they´ve already taken the movement it should just affect their next round (unless using Fly-By, or if they started within range and wanted to move after the grab*). Likewise if the Encumbrance is more than is compatable with their movement/actions (i.e. more than Heavy Encumbrance in most cases), if they can no longer move period (distinct from Fly checks), they will have to make a Hover check next round (to which Encumbrance penalties apply). The whole of each round is just 6 seconds, so this temporary state of staying aloft while having grabbed the enemy off the ground doesn´t really need to last more than 1 second or so, for visualization´s sake.
Note that Fly checks are made when you ATTEMPT a maneuver, i.e. before you have actually made it, like AoO´s. So if you fail one Fly maneuver which your actions necesitated, you can´t complete that maneuver but you can move in other ways that don´t need a check or that call for a separate check (though if relying on wings for flight, failing by 5+ means you instantly fall to the ground, vs. at end of your turn, if you haven´t succeeded on other maneuvers).
And yeah, I agree the Fly system isn´t 100% obvious how it works for things like this...
* Note that the rules are unclear what happens when the Grappler moves away from their target. Likely because grappling normally also applies the grappled condition (barring movement), there is nonetheless ways to avoid this, namely using the -20 option of Grab, Monster SQ´s amounting to the same thing (ala Kraken), or possibly even Freedom of Movement effects. How does that affect the grapple target? It seems strange if somebody could move 100´ away after Grappling a target, yet the target is still Grappled and can be pinned next round (though the Grappler needs to threaten the target to make a subsequent Grapple check). On the other hand, a Grappler moving 10´ away, within THEIR OWN Reach (but outside the target´s reach), seems more than reasonable, since the target is continually within their ´threat area´. (though Grappled condition technically makes them not threaten).
Thanks, Quandry.
I like your idea about grappling with a fly-by and using the remaining movement to pass through the target's previously-threatened spaces (and I have to agree that the initiator shouldn't be able to move more than their reach away from the target, in the same turn the grapple was made, without releasing the grapple). This would let the two creatures be grappling without being adjacent, albeit only until making a check to sustain the grapple next round, but that could still save my summoner from a hit or two.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Yeah, it sounds like you got, there´s different ways to make it work.
Just to be clear, let´s say if you don´t have Fly-By / don´t want to use the -20 option (because it wouldn´t work), the Eidolon mount makes a standard Move to within Reach of the target, then Grabs it as it´s Standard Action.... If you didn´t do fancy maneuvers and moved more than half speed, you don´t need to make Fly check that round.
Next round, you want to move away with the target, and since the Eidolon IS Grappled itself, it will have to use the Move option of Maintaining a Grapple (moving half speed). If it has Greater Grapple (allowing 2 Maintains/ round) that could help avoid making a Fly check (if you avoid fancy maneuvers), but you´re basically going to compare how far you moved that round to the Eidolon´s normal movement speed (i.e. if you moved more than half movement, etc), to see if/what kind of Fly check needs to be made (with Encumbrance penalty).
And yes, the Fly rules are kind of badly written when they say:
Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance GREATER THAN half its speed... and then follows that up with the Table Entry: Move LESS THA half speed and remain flying: DC 10. ...i.e. you apparently need to make a check when you move EXACTLY half your speed, but it doesn´t tell you the DC for that. I assume it should also be DC 10, but if you want to FAQ this for Errata, it woudln´t hurt :-)