Official rule on swarms and alchemical splash weapons?

[Shar Tahl]

On Swarm Subtype:
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

On Splash Weapons(Acid Flask):
You can throw a flask of acid as a splash weapon. Treat this attack as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A direct hit deals 1d6 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 1 point of acid damage from the splash.

Now we have a a party of four brave level 1 adventurers. A Fighter, a Cleric(good/healing), a Rogue and a Bard. Each of them carries standard gear for their class plus a single acid flask each. After some early fighting, they move into a dungeon and are attacked by a Spider Swarm.

Strictly RAW, it seems they have no chance of winning this CR 1 fight. The swarm cannot be targeted, therefore cannot take the full d6+50% damage. The splash is 1+50% that rounds down to 1. They can do 4 damage to this creature, leaving it with 5 left.

Were low CR swarms meant to be this hard or was there some other mechanic meant to be in splash weapons to cause them the full dice damage? I play a lot of Pathfinder Society and I can tell you, the writers love their swarms! Luckily, my girlfriend plays a negative channeling cleric, so we never have too much issue with them, but if you have no area effect spells, you just cant win against the ones with weapon immunity.

Are there any official rules regarding the interaction of splash weapons and swarms that make it more clear?

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

Strictly speaking you can throw a flask of alchemist's fire at a "square" since a swarm is assumed to be covering the whole square it deals 1d6+50% to the swarm.

At least that's how I've always ruled it in my games.

Edit: Flying swarms are trickier if they aren't adjacent to the ground.

[Christopher Woldridge]

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Strictly speaking you can throw a flask of alchemist's fire at a "square" since a swarm is assumed to be covering the whole square it deals 1d6+50% to the swarm.

At least that's how I've always ruled it in my games.

Edit: Flying swarms are trickier if they aren't adjacent to the ground.

+1

That is how I have both run it and seen it run at conventions.

[Ksorkrax]

Btw, why do swarms take only half damage from area stuff? Shouldn´t area effects deal MORE damage to them since they lack the big hides of greater creatures and the reason common attacks deals only half damage is that they have problems hitting the swarm which a are effect wouldn´t have?

[SmiloDan]

Ksorkrax wrote:

Btw, why do swarms take only half damage from area stuff? Shouldn´t area effects deal MORE damage to them since they lack the big hides of greater creatures and the reason common attacks deals only half damage is that they have problems hitting the swarm which a are effect wouldn´t have?

They take 1 1/2 times the normal damage from splash and area effects.

[Drejk]

Ksorkrax wrote:

Btw, why do swarms take only half damage from area stuff? Shouldn´t area effects deal MORE damage to them since they lack the big hides of greater creatures and the reason common attacks deals only half damage is that they have problems hitting the swarm which a are effect wouldn´t have?

But they do suffer greater damage from area effects.

prd wrote:

A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

[Elven_Blades]

Yeah, 50% more, not just 50 %.

I like the logic of saying the swarm covers the square and you can target the square, so there for you can target the swarm.
What my groups have allowed against swarm is that each square takes the splash damage of 1, so if you target the square and the swarm is all bunched up in a 10 square, rather than being spread out in a line for example, they would take 4 damage, 1 damage per square.

We also allow splash weapons to deal splash to 3 squares of a large creature and consider one of the squares to be the one hit by the attack roll. There for, splash weapons are 1d6+3 against large. It's a lot of fun, and still makes flasks decent to have around, even as high as around level 10.

Pretty sure this is not an actual rule though, we just like it.

[azhrei_fje]

Shar Tahl wrote:

Strictly RAW, it seems they have no chance of winning this CR 1 fight. The swarm cannot be targeted, therefore cannot take the full d6+50% damage. The splash is 1+50% that rounds down to 1. They can do 4 damage to this creature, leaving it with 5 left.

Why do you think they can't be targeted by what is essentially an area effect attack? I don't see anything related to that.

Regarding attacking with the flask, just aim at the creature and make a ranged touch. If you hit, the flask does damage. This works for flying creatures as well.

If you insist on some kind of fluff just say that the flask used has been scored on the inside to make it break easier when used against flying creatures. Or maybe it works like a grenade where just before throwing it the user pushes on the cork plugging the flask and a liquid is squeezed into the bottle which sets off a timer.

Really though, the fluff is just that: fluff. It might make for a cool description in a desperate battle scene, but it shouldn't affect the rules.