I was wondering if there is any means in Pathfinder of changing the touch attack from strength based to something else (like Dex), in the same way that Weapon Finesse does.
I really don't feel that touching someone is based on Str, but who am to quibble with RAW?
So...anyone know of anything?
I was wondering if there is any means in Pathfinder of changing the touch attack from strength based to something else (like Dex), in the same way that Weapon Finesse does.
I really don't feel that touching someone is based on Str, but who am to quibble with RAW?
So...anyone know of anything?
Pretty sure Weapon Finesse works.
The only way is weapon finesse.
Pretty sure Weapon Finesse works.
The only way is weapon finesse.
From the wording of Weapon Finesse, it's not clear if it applies. I suppose I should have clarified that a bit in my question. I know it used to in 3.5, but I can seem to figure if still does.
If so, then I know what I have to do...
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Minor quibble but:
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Emphasis mine.
Do touch attacks count as Natural Weapons, or light weapons?
As a GM, I'd rule that they do in my games, because it doesn't do any harm really. But by rules alone I haven't seen a definition of a touch attack being a Natural or a Light Weapon.
So can one use weapon finesse with touch attacks?
Some things fall under the "common sense" observations. Of course weapon finesse can be applied to (certain) touch attacks. This is why:
A touch attack is not innately a light weapon, or natural weapon, or anything. It isn't a weapon, it is a type of attack. The aim of the attack is only to touch (rather than slice/pierce/bludgeon) the target.
So if you try to touch the target with your hands, then weapon finesse applies as your hands (unarmed strikes) fall under the category of light weapons. If you try to touch the target with your greatsword, then weapon finesse does *not* apply, since it is a two-handed weapon. (Why would you want to do that? Easy: you might not be able to harm the target physically, but the "flaming" enchantment on your two-handed sword could still burn it.)
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Some things fall under the "common sense" observations. Of course weapon finesse can be applied to (certain) touch attacks. This is why:
A touch attack is not innately a light weapon, or natural weapon, or anything. It isn't a weapon, it is a type of attack. The aim of the attack is only to touch (rather than slice/pierce/bludgeon) the target.
So if you try to touch the target with your hands, then weapon finesse applies as your hands (unarmed strikes) fall under the category of light weapons. If you try to touch the target with your greatsword, then weapon finesse does *not* apply, since it is a two-handed weapon. (Why would you want to do that? Easy: you might not be able to harm the target physically, but the "flaming" enchantment on your two-handed sword could still burn it.)
I am not sure on the touch attack with a flaming great-sword. For some reason that seems off to me.
Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Since unarmed attacks are light weapons and a touch attack is considered an unarmed attack then I think it makes sense to be able to use weapon finesse.
@Alex: Unfortunately, that section´s mention of Touch Attacks is a very partial rendition of the fuller rules for Touch Spells, which are detailed later in the Combat Chapter. There, we learn that Touch Spells can be delivered as a Touch Attack (Standard Action) OR via Unarmed Strikes (any attacks, i.e. Full Attack compatable) which provoke unless you have IUS (and if you use Natural Attacks, it could possibly provoke somehow if there´s some Nat. Weapon which provokes for some reason... very wierd wording there). The two aren´t the same.
But yeah, it makes sense that Finesse would apply, and that´s something I would probably list amongst the other properties of Touch Attacks, which aren´t very well defined as their own attack mode anywhere (IMHO). The only subsection named ´Touch Attacks´ really just defines Touch AC, and there is no Touch Attack equivalent to Melee/Ranged/Unarmed (all subsections of Attack Action... of course).
I smell what you're stepping in Quandary, good point. I was trying to connect the two and overlooked that. Personally, I've never had a player bring it up and never really thought about it, myself, but will definately keep weapon finesse in mind if I ever manage to find a game to play in.
Not that this helps you, but I have always called for the highest bonus between Dex and Str on melee touch attacks.
I am not sure on the touch attack with a flaming great-sword. For some reason that seems off to me.Some things fall under the "common sense" observations. Of course weapon finesse can be applied to (certain) touch attacks. This is why:
A touch attack is not innately a light weapon, or natural weapon, or anything. It isn't a weapon, it is a type of attack. The aim of the attack is only to touch (rather than slice/pierce/bludgeon) the target.
So if you try to touch the target with your hands, then weapon finesse applies as your hands (unarmed strikes) fall under the category of light weapons. If you try to touch the target with your greatsword, then weapon finesse does *not* apply, since it is a two-handed weapon. (Why would you want to do that? Easy: you might not be able to harm the target physically, but the "flaming" enchantment on your two-handed sword could still burn it.)
That was my initial reaction to it too - but it is not really different from an enemy stepping into a fire. They take environmental damage. By putting a flaming weapon against someone, you essentially take the environment to them.
Damage wise it isn't a big deal. Touch for 1d6 or attack properly for a 2d6 + 1d6 + 16.
As a GM I sometimes reduce the damage dice 1 step (1d6 to 1d4) since the exposure isn't as prominent as when you actually hit someone with it.
Thanks for the input, everyone.
I found the various sections rather vague, but you've all brought up good points.
Weapon Finesse working with touch attacks is always the way I've run things. It makes sense.
Always helps to hear it from the horse's mouth. I think my DM tends to give more weight to anything coming from the Up Tops.
I discussed with my DM and other players, and I think we're going to allow Weapon Finesse to apply on touch attacks.
Not that this helps you, but I have always called for the highest bonus between Dex and Str on melee touch attacks.
I personally think that this is an awesome rule. Not sure I'll be able to convince my DM of that, mind you. This is really the sort of thing I wish would get some coverage/revision in a supplement like Ultimate Magic